Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

Also, why are so many men ok with men taking women's spaces???

That's easy. It gets these annoying people out of THEIR spaces.

I’m going to respond here but I have to caveat it by saying that it is incredibly infantilising and patronising to label anyone who disagrees with you as a gaslit handmaiden.

I respect your stance of thinking the baseline for society should be separating people by their genitals. I don’t agree, but I don’t think that in itself is transphobic. I have read many, many, resources often posted on here by GC people, followed people on both sides of the argument on twitter, researched the issue deeply and I myself am a rape victim. I agree there is a conversation to be had around prisons, and that there are problematic trans people (Yaniv etc).

However. I don’t appreciate being told that because I’ve been raped I must inherently believe penises should be kept away from me. I don’t believe my genitalia is the foundation of what makes me a woman. I recognise it’s a reason why the female sex is oppressed, but my preferred solution to this would be an entirely unisex society where we stop sexualising bodies in what, to me, is a throwback to Victorian prudishness, and work towards equality on not just a social level but a bodily level. I’m not saying cubicles should be removed and we should all parade naked - of course there should still be privacy. But I don’t think it’s healthy to go around being inherently scared of penises. We should all learn to share spaces together, as equals. Gender, and by extension, womanhood and manhood, are social constructs that have no place in modern society. They oppress everyone (and yes, I would like to see more equal parenting, free childcare and child-rearing seen as a parents joint job, not just a woman’s).

I’ve seen people on here say that they themselves have never ‘felt’ like a woman therefore the trans experience must not be real. That’s like saying you’ve never felt like a lesbian or a French person - just because you yourself haven’t experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Who are we to say that others don’t deeply and viscerally feel their physical sex isn’t what it’s meant to be? I also don’t consider trans women men - as I’ve explained I don’t think biology is the starting point we should be working from, and I don’t believe someone growing up with these feelings will have the same experience as man who is happy to be a man. They will grow up/live as a trans person, and that in itself comes with its own issues.

I think you’re perfectly within your rights to believe people should be separated by biological sex. I don’t agree, and I don’t think you can expect society to always agree with you. I would like to see the focus shift away from it because it shouldn’t be what defines us. Bodies are not inherently sexual or dangerous things, and accepting them and sharing spaces I believe is the way to true parity.

I’ve thought out my position very carefully. I am not a gaslit handmaiden. I’ve read and researched and discussed and debated a lot. You can disagree with me but don’t patronise me.

I also see and value the good intentions. But are you really helping someone when you're lying to them?

Of course I lock my doors 🙄. I think that some spaces should be exclusive like womans shelters and prisons shouldn't be mixed. Maybe a trans wing and obviously sports.

Thank you to the women who have responded here, I believe in good faith, to the question. Yes, you will probably get some push back, but I'm genuinely pleased you've responded.

What I'm getting from your responses is a very hopeful tone, and a desire to be kind, especially to people you know. I do respect that as a choice to an extent.

I don't share it, because I think it's ultimately naive and very high handed with the boundaries of other women, but I just wanted to sound a note of thanks for responding even if I profoundly disagree.

Ever lock your doors at night? Fascist.

Surely, even you have some gates you would like to keep?

And you are making decisions for others by defining 'inclusivity' in this rather fuzzy way.

pachyderm That is just my opinion, I am not making that decision for anyone else. Everyone's life experience is different. I just prefer to be inclusive and not gate keep.

I’m not going to pile on to the shit these people have already gotten by refusing to acknowledge their true selves

Thats fine to be nice to one group.

But its only part of the picture.

There is an impact on others that needs to be acknowledged.

And its about balancing 'the shit that people have to deal with' of everyone on society.

I’m not going to pile on to the shit these people have already gotten by refusing to acknowledge their true selves

Oops - you’ve already been brainwashed!! What do you mean, ‘true selves’? You must be subscribing to that born in the wrong body stuff. But is it ‘born in the wrong body’ or ‘has got a major mental health issue based around their gender, often because of society’s ridiculous expectations’? How can you be born in the wrong body? You’re born in the the body you’ve got. Everything else is social stuff.

Gay conversion therapy is rightly looked down upon as a bad thing. So why are we so happy to accept chopping off your bits as acceptable? Converting man to woman when it is not actually physically possible?

"I'm not conditioned to think of all men as the enemy"

Oh my god WELL DONE YOU. You incredible creature! You deserve an award for managing not to get raped, bullied or beaten up by men and then being scared of them, when so many others have failed! What an amazing virtuous leader you are

I’m in a lot of social media groups where I’m on the older end, being in my mid-30s. Every single group I’m in outright and unquestionably bans anybody who says anything that could be perceived as remotely negative towards transgender people. Therefore, in order to participate, you have to toe the line. Younger people are increasingly physically isolated, and increasingly spending more time online. For a lot of people, these are the groups they go to for both socialisation and support. So to be banned from them is often an awful thought. I think it’s an insidious way of brainwashing younger people, if I’m honest.

On the other hand, I only really learnt that trans was really a thing through being in these groups. And only really started to question it when I saw posts such as ‘I’m a trans woman having my period, how do I deal with this?’

So I would posit that the younger generation suffer from both a degree or brainwashing, and also that because they’re younger they’ve not had to deal with a lot of the women’s issues that come with time.

And for older women - I simply think a lot of us aren’t aware, certainly of the impact that this is all having, until it actually does impact us. By which point it’ll probably be too late.

I'm personally not an expert but also don't get all 'scared' of sharing spaces with men. I'm not conditioned to think of all men as the enemy. That is just as unhealthy I think. I couldn't care less.

My daughter, however, has very strong feelings about this (she is 14) and will argue the toss about the rights of trans people. Literally every day. She believes trans people should be able to take part in sports as their current gender as long as they are physically transitioning. She hasn't been gaslighted or raised in a misogynistic environment. I don't think her view point is unhealthy in this day and age. Maybe there should be a minimum of time they have been living as their new gender.

Indistinct do you consider there to be a problem in changing rooms? I know of plenty of changing rooms where there are no cubicles. If someone has surgically transitioned, of course there is no problem with them being there. But if we change the rules to say anyone who says they are a woman is considered as a woman we let the creepy men claiming to be women by putting on a dress but who have absolutely no desire to transition medically or surgically in, with their penises, to share spaces with women and girls. We wouldn't be able to challenge them. Is that right?

I have no problem with how people want to dress or live, as long as it doesn't impact on my right to feel safe.

With winning awards or being in posts for women, females have life experiences based on their biology. I don't think someone who has not experienced that talks for women. They have a very different life experience. It doesnt make their life experience invalid to say they shouldn't be seen as women. Many transwomen, I'm sure, go through a lot which means they are experts able to talk about being transwomen.

On sports the issues are obvious and I'm not going into them.

Oh and I also think the standard of education has plummeted, despite all the bullshit degrees around. I am constantly taken aback at university grads who cannot think critically or string an argument together. And who don't read.

cherryblossomgin well that's nice for you but you don't get to decide that for other women and girls. You don't get to hand over their rights. Can you not see the problem here?

"Women are physically different. But I do consider a trans person a woman"

I think we need to start teaching formal logic at schools.

Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces

Because the mantra "Transwoman are women" is a genius propaganda tool.

You just need to get women to accept that one anti-science sentence and women & girls give up their right to say no to men taking their places and being in their spaces.

The reason men are excluded from some women’s spaces isn't because my lovely husband, brother, male friends, etc are a risk to women. It is because men as a sex class are a proven risk to women, and unfortunately we can’t tell the good ones from the wronguns simply by looking at them.

Therefore we exclude them all, no matter their presentation or how they “feel”. To do otherwise opens a door to abusive men, who as we know will go to great lengths (eg training as priests) to access vulnerable people.

I don't know anyone who's okay with this irl and I know an awful lot of people. I sometimes wonder if a lot of it is just public virtue signalling and trying to be the wokest.

IndistinctRadioChatter humans have never needed to check birth certificates to tell women from men. The basic fact is males shouldn't be going in female spaces and I don't care how nice your mate is, they can't come in. I have nice mates too and I wouldn't dream of overriding other women's boundaries by bringing them into female-only spaces - but then the idea of going in wouldn't even cross their minds anyway.

This is an entire thread of slagging off other women! One PP even called women with a different opinion to her as ‘a bit thick’ ! How is this feminism?! It isn’t, it’s just mumsnet using any excuse to discriminate against trans people under the guise of ‘worrying about women’s spaces’ as usual.

maybe the Internet does not represent people's reality and on the whole people are far more tolerant and excepting of others, and show understanding of others lived experience when faced with it.

answer, I support trans rights because I know a few M-to-F trans people and I honestly don’t think of them as men

Unfortunately you can’t write legislation and policy based on the handful of transwomen you know who I’m sure are absolutely lovely.

You need to look at the bigger picture and say, if we create these laws who will abuse them? What are the consequences? In other words a risk/impact assessment.

You don’t write laws based on Tracy 2 doors down from your mum who is a delight and just trying to live their life the best way they know. You need to consider Dave the creepy weirdo you wouldn’t leave your kids alone with who will be rubbing his hands (and other bits) together at the relaxing of safeguarding legislation.

No bloody idea. It’s interesting the friends I’ve lost on Facebook since I became openly gender critical are either male and gay or female and ‘cool’. Like the cool wives that are ok with porn.

I do wonder how long it will take them to wake up, interestingly 2 of them have young daughters.

Btw I’m not going to get into an argument here. You asked a question and I gave an honest response. I’m sure I will he shouted down any moment and when that happens I will leave the thread. I just don’t have headspace for debating on a Saturday morning.