Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

You know what I wish we could change? The demarcations “pro trans” and “anti trans”.

Definitely agree with this. Not wishing to give away womens rights is 'anti trans'. Thinking about women in any situation is 'anti trans'. Its just..ridiculous. I am not anti trans, I just think sex is a real thing and that in a couple of areas in life, it matters.

One of the ways that activists try to shut.peopke like me up is by saying that any recignition of any concern at all is just a smoke screen

That goes both ways. Way back in the dawn of this I took agin to Magdalen Berns because of various response videos she made about Blaire White. Now I'm sure it was all water off a duck's back to White and she would neither need nor ask for defenders but I certainly did not warm to Berns or her view.

Bizarrely of course White agrees with you (general radical feminist "you") on many trans related issues.

You know what I wish we could change? The demarcations “pro trans” and “anti trans”.

I consider myself extremely pro trans. The fact that I believe that there are practical issues that remain to be resolved does not make me anti trans. One of the ways that activists try to shut.peopke like me up is by saying that any recignition of any concern at all is just a smoke screen.

aliasundercover

I was, oddly, a witness to the verbal attack by a trans woman on Julie Bindel
Do you mean 'the attempted physical attack on Julie Bindel'?

I saw and heard someone shouting and swearing at Julie Bindel.

Teenagers and young people quite often are very pro-trans as theyve been brought up in ultra individualist , narcissistic society, and also often just havent seen enough male bullshit yet.

I was, oddly, a witness to the verbal attack by a trans woman on Julie Bindel
Do you mean 'the attempted physical attack on Julie Bindel'?

It was a not a value judgement of the girl, it was a recognition that we are all held to ridiculously high and unattainable beauty standards and teenage girls especially are vulnerable and sensitive. It can go either way- either they desperately want cosmetic surgery to beautify themselves or make themselves slimmer ( I desperately wanted breast implants at 15) OR they go the trans route and try to identify out of the objectification and oppression

Or they can be ignored as the vast majority of the population do, as can easily be demonstrated by looking around you in any public place.

I think the problem you (general you radical feminists) have in getting people to see your point of view is , certainly for me, what seems like huge exaggeration. It's all so black and white; indeed everything is so black and white- like the comment above. We are not all held to "ridiculously high and unattainable beauty standards". Magazines and adverts show beautiful people- in real life we know that standard of beauty isn't achievable.

On trans issues one comment a while back struck me. A poster said her husband never noticed trans women, but she did. I live in a small city, I'm in London on average once a month and most of my holidays are European city breaks. I never notice either.

In my home city 2 businesses I deal with regularly have a trans woman employee; friends have a ftm child and I was, oddly, a witness to the verbal attack by a trans woman on Julie Bindel. In London beyond once sharing a lift in a hotel with a trans woman I have not been aware of any trans persons.

On toilets my preference is floor to ceiling single occupancy individual rooms. I don't care enough about that to campaign for them but happy with that set- up if that is what is available.

It seems to me that MN highlights the most obnoxious and repellent behaviour which is then put forward as a threat to all women and personally from my own experience there seems a big credibility gap.

@IndistinctRadioChatter I think it's nonsense to accuse someone of internalized misogyny because they said "plain big girl". It was a not a value judgement of the girl, it was a recognition that we are all held to ridiculously high and unattainable beauty standards and teenage girls especially are vulnerable and sensitive. It can go either way- either they desperately want cosmetic surgery to beautify themselves or make themselves slimmer ( I desperately wanted breast implants at 15) OR they go the trans route and try to identify out of the objectification and oppression.

I've also noticed a "physical similiarities" amongst the mothers of trans kids who persue medical treatment... but that would probably make you explode if I were to outline them!

I was that "large plain girl". My school won the International Bullying Trophy 6 years in a row - and as a result I was ridiculed for my appearance because I didn't fit the accepted narrative.

But back then there was not this trend.

Had there been, it might've seemed like an easy way out : "look! I'm not a big plain girl, I'm a stunning and brave boy" - and then everyone would've loved me as a boy.

(My mother probably would've loved it too - all that attention on her )

So yeh... I know what it's like to be the "big plain girl" and know that people loathe me based upon my physical appearance and how I wished I could do anything to fit in and not face that ridicule. I read She-Devil and wished I could have all that surgery so I could be accepted.

I do see why "large plain girl" comes with its own problems but OTOH I know what Becky meant and she did put it in quotes. It is how that girl would be perceived by those who have a fixed idea of how girls should look and a large part of society in general.

I was that girl too. I was a "tomboy", tall, chunky, short hair. (I also have autism traits/possibly mild ASD although that wasn't known at the time.) I distinctly remember aged about 8 or 9 thinking that I would prefer to be a boy. Totally unsurprisingly as how I looked and acted made me feel excluded from "girlhood" and that I couldn't cut it as a girl, while boys were "allowed" to be like me. I was also routinely assumed to be gay though I'm not.

Thank fuck the trans trend was not a thing then or I might well have had it forced on me. What actually happened was I discovered feminism, learned how to be my own kind of girl/woman and got on with my life on my own terms, with the help of some wonderful books and older women friends/teachers. That's how it should be IMO.

A few years ago I met another girl, the daughter of a friend, who was similar and feeling very awkward at 13. She told me about having size 8 feet and feeling huge and I tried to be supportive and told her I was the same and it didn't matter and she was great as she was etc.

Fast forward a few years and she's now identifying as non-binary. Her choice but I partly put that down to the pressure on women to fit in to a traditionally feminine, pretty mould or else not be seen as proper women.

twicemummy
The very idea that women are nothing more than a fuckhole and that a male can define what a woman is, is misogynistic. The very concept suggests that women don't exist in their own right, but only as an abstract male definition

But there isn't a definition any more is there? Just a feeling in a man's head.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

There’s just no point in arguing with people...

I didn't argue at all, @Indistinct. I just asked some questions. Would you mind answering them?

I feel desperately sorry for the child who is IMO just a "large plain girl" who doesn't know how to handle that during those difficult teenage years.

How dare you presume to know the mind of the daughter of a friend of yours? Calling a teenager a “large plain girl” is the worst kind of internalized misogyny. If this kind of thinking wasn’t perpetrated by women I would call it paternalism.

This thread is going the way I knew it would so I’m signing off. But please don’t interpret that as me having my mind changed. There’s just no point in arguing with people who are so committed to one viewpoint that they think they can read other people’s minds and don’t even see the irony of making disparaging remarks about a teenager’s appearance.

I've lost friends. People I had long deep relationships with who I trusted more than anyone.

One is a woman who is lesbian, and I thought we would find ourselves disagreeing maybe about extremes but that she would absolutely believe in a feminism that centres those with female bodies. I was wrong, and she 'came out' as trans-masculine soon after.

I have other friends who identify as bi, queer or lesbian who absolutely seem to believe in need for preferred pronouns, transpeople as the most oppressed, TWAW.

Some are autistic - and I think that matters. I'm in a number of groups that affirm and accept that autistic people are most likely to the trans and that listening to austistic people means unquestioning agreement that a child can know that they are actually male/female and that as parents we need to respect and support that. Interestingly one of the reasons I think this is a massive safeguarding problem is fear for my autistic daughter and her peers who are most likely to find society confusing, puberty distressing and who always, by definition, have communication barriers.

One friend I believe doesn't know what to believe, except she wants a strong relationship with her daughter who announced, around the time the father announced he was actually gay and was moving out, that at 13 she definitely isn't female anymore. I'm sure the suddenness of becoming a single mother working full-time as well as studying has also been relevant to her not seeming upset by this whole thing writ large.

I think Stephen Whittle came on a few years back to answer the 'where are all the transmen' question by stating that they are all off doing manly things so of course aren't on woman-forums. I'd say a lot of women are so busy just coping with daily life that they haven't really thought much about the implications of male bodies in female spaces.

I think it's a misconception as to what falls under that umbrella. Another poster up thread used the word "gentle" - and that's the word I'd use to describe transexuals I met 20 years ago who transitioned. Clearly unhappy souls - but IMO not a threat to women. Very much the "Hayley from Corrie" variety.

There's someone in the media right now who almost "passes" - but I sense a veneer and underneath barely concealed is an angry person with propensity towards violence.

I think the transexuals are few and far between - what scares me is an army of AGP.

I'm not sure about the younger generation (under 20-ish), peer pressure? Seeking attention?

As for friends - although I'm not overly GC - I frequently comment on Posie's stuff etc. on FB so it's not hidden. I have one friend whose child wears binders and is undergoing medical treatment... I feel desperately sorry for the child who is IMO just a "large plain girl" who doesn't know how to handle that during those difficult teenage years. Another friend is a gay man who's an activist for Sparkle + Pink News. We've been friends 10+ years and away from that topic he still makes me howl with laughter... but now there's an undercurrent and I see he actually hates women - you know, the type to refer to us as "fish" - not to our faces of course. He's got many trans friends on his FB and they are not "gentle".

@indistinctradiochatter
How do you feel about male predators who enter gender-neutral or unisex toilets and place hidden cameras there? You can buy them online for just a few pounds, and some are almost invisible. You don't know they are there. Luckily, this one was discovered in a unisex Costa toilet by a vigilant customer:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48647089?fbclid=IwAR38kxlPjOk2WxUO1jiQUJvJ83759d1tUja8kQshQi3swJ0ui3FJGy-pui8

The device, in the branch's sole unisex toilet, was securely attached with straps and had four small LED lights on the front.

How do you feel about autogynephilia men/transwomen, who regularly rummage in the wastebins in women's toilets for used tampons and sanitary pads, and wear them in their underwear?

How do you feel about these same people talking to young women/girls/female children in toilets asking them for pads or even asking if they can teach them how to insert a tampon? Showing an interest in tampon strings hanging down? I won't post any links here but you can easily find such cases online.

Do you think it's worth taking the risk of creating yet more opportunities for such perverts (I hope you agree that these people are perverts!) just so genuine transwomen don't feel excluded?

How are we going to police this?

The only women who do this are younger than 25 - 30 years mostly and are still seeking the approval of males to validate their existence.

This was my first thought too. The girls from school who always said they didn't like other girls and only hung out with the boys, looking cool.

I think it's partly wanting to be right-on and non-bigoted, which affects both men and women. The (false imo) affiliation between homosexuality and trans makes people feel that if they are open-minded and support gay rights, then it naturally follows that it should be the same for trans, and to be fair that attitude is very strongly pushed by some woke commentators.

And party the way women are socialised to doubt themselves and make space for others, which is often discussed on here. I have always felt slightly uncomfortable, though I tried to be sympathetic, about transwomen - ever since I first heard about it. Not out of bigotry but because it just didn't seem quite right to me that you could decide you belonged to my sex when you physically didn't, and often for apparently gender-based reasons thast have nothing to do with your sex. But I wouldn't have dared to say so in the face of everyone else apparently thinking otherwise, until the last few years when a) other feminists explicated that for me, and b) the trans lobby became so extreme and unreasonable.

And I am very feminist and always have been - I'm considered an extreme feminist by most people I know. So if it took me a while I think the same will be true for a lot of women.

I agree with the OP that social media is depressing when you see woman after woman you thought you admired, jumping to defend MB and others without even looking at the facts. And women putting their pronouns as she/her on their twitter blurb like it's something you have to sign up to..

I think it's fine to criticize handmaidens. Saying it's unfair or even unfeminist to label women as handmaidens is thought-stopping and is an attempt to prevent us from analyzing male power.

First of all it's not true that everyone can be a feminist or all types of thinking are feminist. Liberal feminism was a backlash against real feminism and libfems unfortunately serve and shore up male power. An individualist pro porn pro prostitution pro trans stance isn't feminist. If you think it is then its fine to call yourself a libfem. But libfems are handmaidens and we do need the tools and space to analyze why they do what they do.

Handmaidenry is the most upsetting part of patriarchy to me. Women selling out other women and throwing other women under the bus for the crumbs and scraps than men hand out to them in the form of attention.

I agree. I often cut them more slack because they're making their own way within a patriarchy. But sometimes they are so awful and misogynistic that I can't.

I vehemently disagree that being trans is a mental illness in and of itself, and I think that position is untenable.

What is "trans" as a state of being? Not sure what your position is exactly.

Also why is the position you described untenable? Genuinely interested.

maybe the Internet does not represent people's reality and on the whole people are far more tolerant and excepting of others, and show understanding of others lived experience when faced with it.

Shall we put this question to a referendum? I'm happy with that, how about you?

Handmaidenry is the most upsetting part of patriarchy to me. Women selling out other women and throwing other women under the bus for the crumbs and scraps than men hand out to them in the form of attention.

Handmaidenry is the most upsetting part of patriarchy to me. Women selling out other women and throwing other women under the bus for the crumbs and scraps than men hand out to them in the form of attention.”

Yep.This.