Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

Great posts lamaha. I totally agree about the trends and I've seen them come and go too.

Short basketball. 😂 That's a great idea. Would they have to lower the hoop though?

Sorry -- the last post was a little disjointed. I mainly wanted to answer the OP question about female trans-allies; the perplexing why of it. Somehow I let myself be lured into talking about the act of transitioning itself, which was not the topic under discussion.

Are you actually suggesting that being trans is some sort of fun hobby for poorly traveled people whose privilege insulates them from serious adversity? I don’t think you’re being intentionally ironic but this makes no sense. Of course people of relative privilege in western society have more freedom to be openly trans than those living with poverty and fear. Substitute the word “gay” for “trans” and it remains true. But it doesn’t logically follow that being trans, or gay, is just a trendy experiment.

No, I don't think it's a hobby. I think they are dead serious. But I do think it's a passing trend. I've seen at least two societal youth trends in which the participants were dead serious, put their life and soul into it, thought it was forever -- and a few years later it was all gone. I was part of one of those trends. I was convinced I'd never change. I did.

The difference is that in those cases, there was no permanent damage done, no bodily amendments made that could mean health issues for the rest of their. lives.

For that reason, I cited life experience in my post about being patronising; I'm not criticising their privilege per se, which they can't help, but their lack of life experience which disqualifies them from truly understanding the human situation. I too am privileged, but living with and among those faced with devastating problems has given me a vital perspective. It's really hard to have your heard bleed for someone who is in a flap over being misgendered, when you have seen suffering from truly devastating problems. There's a thread I posted some time back about female genital mutilation, with someone sating the real problem is cissexism. I men, get real! That's what I mean.

You don't have to have lived through serious adversity yourself in order to understand that physical problems give you a grounding in reality that in my eyes at least is totally lacking in the people who uphold this particular societal trend. Brave and stunning, my left foot!

You don't have to be starving to know that a healthy body of either sex is the most wonderful possession, and to deliberately interfere with a body's functioning to achieve an impossible goal is a fool's errand. I'm sorry, but I can't find another word for it.

It is impossible to change sex. I sympathise with anyone who is so seriously uncomfortable in their body that they are willing to take such risks, but I fear they are only making things worse, because the happiness they really seek will remain as elusive as ever. Deep inside they know that they have not really changed sex. They know that there IS a binary that can't be changed. They know that nobody really sees them as the opposite sex; they're just being polite.
The initial euphoria will fade away; the problems they once had will give way to other, different, more serious ones. Health problems, dependency on drugs, relationship problems, and the knowledge that it still hasn't "worked" -- that will follow them for a long, long time, and there will be nothing they can do about it.It's tragic. For those genuinely miserable with their body, I think a better solution would be therapy.

Yes I have heard of the Maslow pyramid; in fact it played a part of my final dissertation and I practiced a therapy based on it for many years.

I personally don't believe in gender. All of my "femaleness" comes from my biology and the experiences granted me by a female body. Gender doesn't exist apart from sex. You can pretend to "change" from one to the other but you will end up equally unhappy in the pretend result. That's my opinion, based on the fact that we cannot change sex.

I'm not saying for a second that it's directly comparable but I can see how some of the arguments cross over a bit as previously mentioned on here and it's here that I struggle with the class analysis aspect sometimes, despite my kneejerk reaction being that the two sexes shouldn't be combined.

I think the proof is in the pudding a little. If sex is really not that important in terms of sport, people would be agitating for getting rid of sex based sports. Yet no one is, because really everyone understands why they are divided.

Ethnicity would be very difficult to control in sports in terms of divisions. It's not discreet enough. But you do have some sports with divisions and you could have others if people wanted to. It might be interesting to have short basketball.

There was a time when POC weren't allowed to compete against white folk in sports, and there's no doubt that certain ethnicities are more naturally gifted in certain sports (e.g. sprinting). It's also the case that black males generally have higher testosterone than white males. This said, one could argue that white males should have their own sprinting class.

The differences aren't nearly as big as the difference between sexes. Competition is still possible. If it were clear that the Men's 1500 had clearly split into two different races, the race would be broken down into categories as it is for other events like boxing, but that doesn't happen so elite men compete in one race.

"My intimate spaces" sounded like I don't want them in my knickers, which I don't , as I am a lesbian. But what I meant was "private spaces reserved for women"

@LadyBumclock I suspect, though I can't be sure, that if a ruffian clocks a trans man as female , and that trans man is in an exclusively male space like some backstreet toilet somewhere, the trans man is likely to be raped- for being female

Yes totally. As the transman Brandon Teena, who the film Boys Don't Cry was about, was raped. So on average, as per genetic biology, men are more of a risk to transmen (i.e. women) than vice versa.

But in the situation where men are not really paying attention or are not interested in the issue as such, they are less likely to care about what transmen might mean for them.

There's also the kind of sexist point about men not noticing. IME men are far far less likely to notice what other people look like and the details of their appearance than women are. Whether that's a product of social conditioning I don't know. Added to that, women are probably more likely to be sensitive to the presence of a male body in their space, going by things like size and voice and maybe also things like sense of smell, because we are used to being aware of that because of the risk.

Intuitively, self ID seems like a terrible idea to me, but I suppose what I'm getting at is the question of at what point do we accept certain protected groups and castigate others in the instance that both demonstrate statistically higher levels of violent crime?

I know what my gut feeling tells me but it's so hard when I start trying to draw comparisons. I don't think TW are women but I also find it really hard to view them as stereotypical men.

There was a time when POC weren't allowed to compete against white folk in sports, and there's no doubt that certain ethnicities are more naturally gifted in certain sports (e.g. sprinting). It's also the case that black males generally have higher testosterone than white males. This said, one could argue that white males should have their own sprinting class.

I'm not saying for a second that it's directly comparable but I can see how some of the arguments cross over a bit as previously mentioned on here and it's here that I struggle with the class analysis aspect sometimes, despite my kneejerk reaction being that the two sexes shouldn't be combined.

As far as transmen, I think many people feel quite a few of them are themselves the victims of this ideology, so women are disinclined to be too harsh. Men are even less aware of these things than many women but I know quite a few don't really like the idea of sharing intimate spaces with women. But they are much more inclined for all kinds of reasons not to mention it.

I have not read the whole thread BUT I was at a social event at the weekend and the majority of women there have no idea what is happening with the ' loss of women only spaces'. I can't remember all the terminology ..I am old .I mean they are not aware that self ID women will be allowed in places like women's prisons , refuges , toilets , changing rooms .

I think this is really it. Most people don't know.

Maybe I'm naive but I don't necessarily conflate TRAs with the genuine transsexual who just wishes they were born the opposite sex (and probably finds it even harder being reviled by said group). I think social media likely brings out the worst aspects.

Of course, it's hard to cater for the latter without pandering to the former but I do t like the idea of tarring all with the same brush and viewing a troubled 20yo transwoman as a misogynist.

@Earlywalker Women reserve the right to challenge any male in their spaces. Transwomen don't "pass" despite whatever fantasies about passing they might hold. We absolutely have the right to say "what are you doing in here?"

@LadyBumclock a bit like butch lesbians might be targeted for corrective rape

To answer the OP.

Risk assessment.

In sports, there is a biological advantage that imo can never be overcome so woman could not fairly compete against trans woman.

In terms of ‘general’ spaces. For me, it comes down to risk assessment. I don’t see transwoman as a huge risk to woman. I believe if a male wanted to get into a female space in order to attack, he would do so without explaining his ‘gender identity’
I think it’s a pretty easy problem to solve with enclosed cubicles and don’t think the small risk of predators using it to their advantage is a big enough risk to tell trans woman to get ‘back in their box’ so to speak.

@LadyBumclock I suspect, though I can't be sure, that if a ruffian clocks a trans man as female , and that trans man is in an exclusively male space like some backstreet toilet somewhere, the trans man is likely to be raped- for being female

@BjornAgain81 I'm not sure about the average man, although all men benefit from patriarchy as we know. But what I'm saying is that any man who thinks he is a woman is inherently a misogynist. So for quite some time feminists have been realizing that transwomen are more misogynistic than the average man. Trans seem to be pornsick for a start, that's where most of them get their idea of what a woman is from. Besides the obvious other problem of them believing they know better than women what a woman is. Plus the notion that a male with a neovagina ( which is literally nothing more than a fuckhole for the accommodation of a penis) is what a woman is. I could literally go on and on about the misogyny inherent in trans ideology. So I'm putting it out there that your average transwomen is more misogynistic than a man who knows what a woman is

Are you actually suggesting that being trans is some sort of fun hobby for poorly traveled people whose privilege insulates them from serious adversity?

I don't think people hold religious beliefs as a fun hobby, but I am free to say that God doesn't exist without being accused of attacking Justin Welby.

Empirically it is also clear that some people suffer from gender dysphoria - but it's not clear why that should lead to a belief that it's possible to change sex or that everybody has a gender identity.

I'm also not clear why the compassionate, kind choice is to pretend that biological sex doesn't have any consequences. That just removes the language that makes it possible to describe prejudice against women/gay people/trans people.

I do wonder what men think about transmen as we so rarely hear anything about it. But there is a major difference in that transmen pose very little threat, generally speaking, to men. They may or may not be OK with a transman in their toilet, I don't know, but there isn't a direct, statistically significant, physical threat to them from a person with female dna and genitalia in that space. And if a transman is allowed to compete against men in sports, that's not going to be seen as much of a threat either. Therefore it's not surprising if a lot of men just don't give it much thought or don't really care.

There is also the issue of identity and not wanting your identity as a man to be trampled over and redefined by women who say they "are male". But as there is so little threat from it, men may be less provoked into considering that issue.

I do understand the concern even if I think it's somewhat overstated (fully appreciate this is just my opinion and could be naive). What I'm a bit surprised about is that I've not seen one single person angry with transmen. Surely they are also reinforcing this narrative in an indirect manner?

twice, please do not apologise for the actions of my mother. Its not your fault and you shouldn't be apologetic just to be nice! It is what it is.

This is what frustrates me though. The black out of the experiences of those who HAVE been negatively affected. Women who are accused of lying or being bigoted for being harmed by the gaslighting or worse. Its like those women don't exist or don't matter. The feelz of the transwoman are the only things that matter and have validity and are never questioned or held up to scrunity.

Men need to sort out their own shit and really not expect sympathy and spaces from the very people they despise and believe themselves to be superior to

Do you really believe that's what the average man thinks about women?

@RedToothBrush
I'm sorry your mother does that. More than once I've considered that women deserve being oppressed. Were so feeble. Women are literally falling over themselves to support transwomen. Transwomen loathe us.
It doesn't help that there's a media blackout of women's voices and opinions.