Would a move back to single sex education help our girls?

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit there are disadvantages for some individual girls - not all. As I've said I enjoyed my time at a girl's school for the most part, but by age 15 I felt like a freak. I was acutely aware that I hadn't been socialised normally and really had no idea how to behave around males who weren't small children or "dad age". This was due to my very specific circumstances and will not apply to most girls I'm sure.

I remember deciding I wanted to go to a mixed sixth form and my parents saying no and teasing me, they could not or would not understand that it wasn't that I wanted a boyfriend, though perhaps I did asa side issue, but that I generally and genuinely felt ill equipped for "real life".

In the end I told my parents that I wouldn't do any work for my a levels unless they let me go to the local sixth form - they'd outright ruled out paying similar fees to my girls'school for a mixed school. I was a very stubborn teenager and they believed me, but the head told them in a meeting before I left that I'd get worse results if I went to a school with "distractions".

I was taking arts subjects anyway and my classes at 6th form were 75% female, and I didn't feel inhibited at all in class, but I did socially, in corridors, in the dining hall - I never even entered the common room. I was so uncomfortable but honestly felt as a sixth former that I had to put myself through it so as to be able to cope in "real life" after school. Not having been exposed to normal interaction with boys my age was a handicap to me. As I say, it was because my school was bording and I had no contact with boys at home either.

A state day school probably has vanishingly few pupils for whom this is an issue.

@decomposingcomposers

What do you see as the disadvantages for individual girls aged 11-16 of single sex education?

I can see two potential disadvantages of single sex education being adopted universally.

1. Girl's schools might eventually be underfunded or disadvantaged in some way with respect to boy's school

1. Boys would obviously then need to go to boy's schools which might make them more sexist. Not actually sure if this is true or not....

But for an individual girl I can see only advantages in being taught in a single sex environment from 11 to 16, as opposed to a school of similar quality that was mixed sex.

What problems? We certainly haven't found a single disadvantage, can't think of any off the top of my head?

SarahTancredi mixed sex schools can indeed deal with boys behaviour without using girls as buffers - for 102 reasons bottom sets at secondary are often all male or 90% male. Bottom sets are actually surprisingly easy to teach partly because they are small classes, with 10-15 pupils.

Middle sets are nightmarish because you have often 31 or 32 pupils, half of whom think they should be in the top set and are pissed off, half of whom think they can't do the work and want to be in the bottom sets/ at home/ anywhere else/ left alone and are pissed off...

Probably the best solution would be maximum class sizes of 15. Double the number of teachers and classrooms means double the school budget of course, so it'll never happen.

I expect the excellent high performing boys schools have small classes, especially if they are private.

Top mixed sets are generally well behaved in mixed state schools because those pupils are usually intrinsically motivated to do well, despite large classes, so that's why your boy's grammar school classes, and indeed any grammar school classes, are probably not particularly badly behaved.

Also whilst not wishing to minimise girl on girl bullying I think that sexual abuse and harassment is one of the worst types there is.

Of course sexual abuse and harassment are appalling and I wouldn't expect any school to tolerate it.

I think bullying can also be intolerable too though and I don't think you can necessarily say that bullying isn't as bad as harassment. Bullying can absolutely ruin someone's life so I don't think it should be minimised as less worse than....

Seating plans from the off set are boy girl boy girl. That should tell you from the start the assumptions being made.

In some schools, yes they are. For a variety of reasons. One being to split up groups of friends.

Some schools aren't good at behaviour management - that can happen in single sex schools as well as mixed sex schools.

Yes, there are issues with the behaviour of some boys. Equally there are behaviour issues with some girls.

It's how that behaviour is dealt with that matters.

If you prefer single sex education for your daughter then that is your choice. Personally, I think there are specific problems that come with single sex education but that's just my view.

My son in secondary has a few friends now who have been on the receiving end of very upsetting and lengthy text message or whatspp embroilment with girls who are telling them about self harm and suicidality, who clearly have very difficult home lives and who are looking for a boyfriend/therapist/escape route. And the boys are upset, overwhelmed and too kind hearted to put a boundary round this, though thankfully all have now confided in adults who can at least keep an eye. I mention this just to counter the assumption that it is just boys disrupting the lives and education of girls - it happens the other way round too but it is less visible.
My lot are all in a former boys school that is now coed. I went to a single sex girls school. I prefer well managed coed, despite the difficulties. At least they are going through it while still at home, where we can support and coach them through establishing boundaries they are comfortable with, boys and girls, and respecting those of others. That said, I expect those in single sex schools are having these conversations too, so I suppose it's good to have the options and a pity provision around the country is so variable.

I guess when you have poor behaviour in a girls school girls at least have the advantage of not being at a massive physical disadvantage to the person bullying them. Also whilst not wishing to minimise girl on girl bullying I think that sexual abuse and harassment is one of the worst types there is.

And decom
I'm sure there are. I've never once said girls never mis behave . I dont think boys misbehave because they are boys. I think they mis behave because no one expects them to behave. And no one can seem to make the connection that if all you do is split them up and allowed them to divert their attention to the buffer kid who they know wont say anything, their behaviour hasn't been dealt with its just been hidden.

We arent just taking about kids who talk being separated. We are talking about kids who deliberately stop the person next to them working in a multitude of way being replaced from a mate who would tell them to piss off whilst half laughing and egging on their mate. To one who would sit there and take it all lesson.

That's a shitty way to treat someone and in mixed schools those someone'are predominantly girls.

Seating plans from the off set are boy girl boy girl. That should tell you from the start the assumptions being made.

fib

I'm sure they know its bollocks. The assertive girls who would tell them to pack it in are never chosen. It's always the ones who would rather sit there and suffer than bother the teacher. If it wasnt a select group of kids used on what is basically a rota it might be more believable that they had no idea it wasnt working for both kids.

My son teaches in a school where they split KS3 into single sex. There are still behavioural issues in the all girls classes. You are naive if you don't realise that.

And I doubt boys want to be sat next to two girls who spend the entire lesson chatting either.

That's one reason why friends get split up - to stop them chatting all lesson.

Yeah, i got absolutely sick of dd being used as an upaid TA. It happened through primary and is happening again in year 8, hence the move. Even at parents evening her history teacher tild us how grest she was as she really helped Ryan (not real name!) to concentrate

Then the problem lies with ineffective behaviour management, rather than with boys.

That ineffective behaviour management can also happen in a girls school. Do you not think bullying or body shaming occurs at a girls school? Do you not think there are feral girls?

The key is how schools deal with that behaviour.

That certainly isn't the case at this particular boys school, so what are they doing differently
Theres no choice is there. They have no choice but to deal with the behaviour before they have a school full of ferel boys the size of grown men.

If only the same could be applied to mixed sex schools. As I said before it does no one any favours. I cant imagine walking through the doors on the first day knowing that by being a boy its automatically assumed you wont behave and instead of being helped to be shaped into a decent human being every minor mistake just ammo fir the "urgh...typical...boys..."

Our girls however Lso walk through the doors knowing at the first sign of trouble from a boy theres a good chance that they will be uprooted from being sat next to their friend and plonked down next to some boy who throws their stuff around, manspreads across the table so they cant work and shoves them around. And that's if they are lucky enough to even get to sit next to a friend and the seating plan hasnt already sandwiched you between two boys twice your size who hold conversations over the top of your head.

I wish all schools would act as if girls werent there and stop using them to do this teachers job for them.

Because it doesn't work.

My son and daughter both went to mixed sex schools. Same secondary school then son went to a sixth form college, daughter to a school sixth form. Again both mixed sex.

They both had a great experience. They both have boys and girls as friends and both did very well. A good school is a good school.

You can just as easily find poor behaviour and disruption in a single sex school as you can in a co ed school. It's how the schools manage this that is the key.

The best performing school, by far, in this borough is a boys school. Which kind of dispels the myth that boys are disruptive etc. and need girls to provide a civilising influence. That certainly isn't the case at this particular boys school, so what are they doing differently?

I have a (lovely) ds, and chose single sex for my dd.

I would love to be able to find a school with the same ethos and feel as dd’s school for ds (obviously full of boys, though ) and the sad fact is that I won’t, because it probably doesn’t exist.

I worry as much about the type of school I will send him to as I did about my choices for dd. He is in no way a second-class, inferior person (just as my dd isn’t), and will ultimately choose the best fit for him, as I did with my dd.

It was of no surprise to me at all that the best fit for my dd was a single sex school. I sadly have no idea where I could send my ds so that he can benefit from a similar environment and outlook.

I have two lovely boys. I still chose single sex for my daughter and can as stated previously can see lots of advantages for girls to single sex.

But had I found a good mixed sex option then I would have been interested. My husband less so. I went to all girls and he went to mixed. He remembers lots of the girls being harassed and called slags if they slept with anyone etc and was keen for our daughter not to experience this.

I think as parents we just have to make decisions for our children based on the best options available to us.

An interesting question though is what we should be doing as a society. Making single sex education more widely available or trying to improve mixed sex education or both.

Hmmm. Must admit my “understanding and tolerance” is pretty limited for boys who disrupt and dominate classes and sexually harass girls. Most boys don’t of course but a significant minority do.

Same isit. Dd didn’t speak out much in her mixed sex primary. She does now. For us anyway the few disadvantages are dwarfed by the massive advantage of single sex education.

I would walk out too if I heard that. I have a son and a daughter and want them both to have a great school life.

In my acquaintance it seems to be the families with only girls that prefer single sex.

Those with both choose mixed. It was the same in play group. Those with just girls seemed to have no understanding or tolerance-of little boys. You see threads on here about it all the time.

I went to an all girls school, and have a dd at a girls school now.

My schooling encompassed everything, from food tech and textiles to car mechanics and outdoor pursuits, with everything in between. There truly were no limits.

My dd is at a similar school now. She did ask why I wanted her in a single sex secondary (she was at a mixed prep), and I talked it through with her. I’m not sure she was fully on board with my reasoning before she went, but loved the school, and was happy to agree to go there.

Now she has been there a year, she regularly comments how much more relaxed, how much freer, it is. She is loving it - both the opportunity to ‘speak up’ and find herself (she was very quiet at her mixed prep) and the fact that socially, there are no girls ‘performing’ for the boys (happened at her prep from a very young age) and so that entire subset of skewed interaction is missing, which she sees as a huge positive.

There are, of course, opportunities to mix with local boys/mixed schools, and opportunities out of school too. She is in now way in a single sex bubble, never coming across boys/males at all. She does have a space where she is free from the social pressures (which start so very young and are ingrained, and this is now a chance to undo some of that damage) to perform femininity, she is no longer (as a well behaved, quiet girl) used to try to quieten down the loud boys in ridiculous classroom management techniques, and she is loving every minute of it.

It doesn't help as far as education for boys is concerned but when I read articles like this I am so relieved that my DDs were never exposed to this sort of crap at school. They had a very happy time at their all girls senior school.

www.abc.net.au/religion/growing-up-in-pornland-girls-have-had-it-with-porn-conditioned-b/10097244

@twicemummy1 I agree and that's one thing that puts me off advocating for it as a system in general as opposed to improving mixed sex education.

That said there are many excellent girls schools in this country with a feminist ethos and as said previously if you can find one I do think they are good for girls.

I wonder how many women who have become very successful (in a career sense which I don't believe is the only way to be successful ) went to one. Though the fact that many of these schools are independents or grammars might make it hard to separate cause and effect.

Fibbke

Why was it hypocritical? We went to look at every school in the borough that had a sixth form and we wanted to have comparisons so that our dd could choose the one best suited to her. We weren't looking specifically at a single sex school in particular. We also looked at the boys school that accepted girls at 6th form.