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Original poster

Another perv in mixed sex changing village

61 replies

Gingerkittykat · 13/06/2019 12:56

www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/17698951.naked-woman-caught-perv-spying-on-her-at-carnegie-leisure-centre/?ref=mr&lp=6

Probably outing since I use this leisure centre frequently, I know it's not the first incident in the 3 years or so since it changed from single sex facilities.

Comments on local FB page with women saying they now feel unsafe taking their kids there, but I'm sure all council facilities in our region are mixed sex, they have also done away with all womens only swim and health suite sessions.

OP posts:
finnmcool · 21/06/2019 17:48

Yes, exactly the same as GLL and all the clothes shops with teenage girls as their core customers.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/06/2019 16:54

Risk assessments regarding trans access to female changing facilities.

In accordance with subsection 17(1)(b) of FOISA, we confirm that we do not hold this information.

So, no risk assessments then. What a surprise.

finnmcool · 21/06/2019 16:30

Good point Goosefoot.

finnmcool · 21/06/2019 16:29

@Gingerkittykat So I got a response to my request for information.
What a shit show.

finnmcool · 21/06/2019 16:28

Thank you for your information request received on 14th June 2019, reference FL289 (“the Request”) addressed to Fife Sports and Leisure Trust (“FSLT”).

We respond to your Request as follows:

I note that you are seeking the following:

Risk assessments regarding trans access to female changing facilities.

In accordance with subsection 17(1)(b) of FOISA, we confirm that we do not hold this information.

Risk assessments regarding changing villages instead of single sex provision

In accordance with subsection 17(1)(b) of FOISA, we confirm that we do not hold this information. FSLT manage the facilities on behalf of Fife Council, who own and are responsible, for any structural changes to them. Fife Council may be able to provide this information.

Details of our insurers, including policy number

In accordance with subsection 16(1)(a) of FOISA, we confirm that we hold this information. I have attached a copy of FSLT’s current Certificate of Insurance which covers both Employers and Public liability. The certificate is displayed in all of FSLT’s leisure facilities.

If you are not satisfied with the way we have handled your request, you have the right to request a review. A request for review must be made within 40 working days of receipt of our response to your Freedom of Information request.

Please write to: Head of Finance and Business Development, Fife Sports and Leisure Trust, Music Institute, East Port, Dunfermline, KY12 7JA to request a review. If our review fails to resolve the matter to your complete satisfaction, you have the right to apply to the Scottish Information Commissioner to appeal our decision.

Kind regards

            Gail

Gail Giraldas

Business Support Coordinator

Fife Sports and Leisure Trust

Music Institute

East Port

Dunfermline

Fife

KY12 7JA

Tel No 03451 555555 ext 443964

Goosefoot · 21/06/2019 13:31

I think to make headway on this there will have to be some gathering of statistics on a widespread basis. It seems like a lot of places aren't really bothering.
I don't know what is available in terms of stats to compared the mixed areas with. But it's very difficult to make an argument without some numbers, it's easy for it to be fobbed off. There really should have been provision made to collect them when the changes were implemented.

Original poster
Gingerkittykat · 21/06/2019 13:21

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding Carnegie Leisure Centre and for your sharing your observations based upon swimming and health suite visits at Carnegie. On behalf Fife Sports and Leisure Trust, we are sorry to hear that your personal concerns arising at this facility has given cause for you to raise a complaint.

When it comes to design and build, the architect will follow approved guidance such as the attached web link document, courtesy of sportengland

www.sportengland.org/media/4187/swimming-pools-dgn-2013.pdf

Page 39 more clearly includes the advantages and disadvantages associated within changing areas.

As the facility operator, we take into account the user patterns and behaviours and seek to actively police our changing and heath suite areas with our own staff member checks.

Our risk assessments are applicable to all user groups, that said, we do have protocol’s in place for child protection and undertake regular training with our staff team. It is widely accepted across the UK and elsewhere that unisex sessions are being offered as part of swimming, gym or health suite and that there is little complaint caused by such an arrangement and is seen to be more inclusive to all.

In terms of the health suite itself, if you ever feel threatened or concerned you or anyone else is more than welcome to either discretely notify a member of staff or in more serious circumstances press the emergency buttons located within for an urgent mass staff response. Note: This normally only applies in a lifesaving situation.

We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing your concerns with us and assure you that we listen to all comments thus creating an opportunity for us to strive for greater improvement in all that we do.

If you remain dissatisfied with the outcome of our investigation or this response you can request that a more senior manager reviews your complaint and our response to it by contacting [email protected].

At Fife Sports and Leisure Trust we are continually looking to improve the services we provide and treat all complaints seriously.

More inclusive to all, except women Sad

Not heard back with the usage figures yet, will update when I do.

OP posts:
Original poster
Gingerkittykat · 16/06/2019 15:49

I wish now I had reported the incidents in the health suite where I have felt uncomfortable but they seemed too trivial to complain about. I mean who complains about a man making flirty comments or is nasty enough to complain about someone with learning disabilities?

OP posts:
Original poster
Gingerkittykat · 16/06/2019 15:30

I am writing because I was disturbed to read in the Dunfermline press about 2 convictions of men convicted of voyeurism within Carnegie Leisure Centre, one in the changing village and another in the female toilets, presumably the toilets which are accessed via the mixed sex area.

I would like to ask how many incidents of men behaving inappropriately towards women or children have been recorded since the change from single sex facilities to a mixed sex changing village?

I am wondering what risk assessments have been made to ensure the safety of women, girls and children in this environment? The area is meant to be supervised yet I see the staff standing around chatting at the desk, and times when no staff seem to be present at all.

I am wondering why there are no single sex health suite sessions. What are the statistics regarding how many men and women use the facilities.

The health suite can feel like a men's social club, at my last visit I think I counted around 9 men to 2 women, who were me and my daughter.

I have faced incidents in the health suite. One is a young man with learning disabilities called XXXX. His group visit with carers frequently and he would touch me on the arm to get my attention and talk to me, behaviour which was not noticed by carers who sat at the side chatting. Although his motivation was not sexual it is still inappropriate as a women wearing a swimsuit should never be touched by a man without her permission. This led me to changing the times I visited to avoid this group.

Another time I had a man make an inappropriate flirty comment in the spa pool, a disturbing experience due to his close proximity.

I would like to request a women's only session, I have largely stopped using the health suite due to my discomfort being in very close proximity to men wearing very little.

I am wondering if the impact on women is considered, especially women who would not be able to be in this space with men due to cultural reasons.

What were the male and female usage patterns of the health suite in the days when there were single sex sessions?

I look forward to your response.

OP posts:
finnmcool · 16/06/2019 09:42

Gingerkittykat That's a great idea!

Original poster
Gingerkittykat · 15/06/2019 23:17

@finnmcool

Amazing, I'm going to ask them about number of incidents in changing village since it changed to mixed sex. I also really want some single sex time in the health suite so going to ask for stats there regarding user numbers, it can feel like a boys club in there and I'm sure that fact alone puts of women from using it.

OP posts:
Popchyk · 15/06/2019 22:06

And another from this week.

www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/17691777.ten-years-for-flintshire-man-convicted-of-attempted-rape-and-false-imprisonment/

A DEESIDE man who hid in pub ladies toilets, put his Hawaiian T-shirt over a terrified woman's head and tried to rape her in a cubicle has been jailed for 10 years.

finnmcool · 15/06/2019 22:03

Who the hell do all the big companies think they are?
They are exposing us to the increased likelihood of voyeurism and assault!

FannyCann · 15/06/2019 21:59

And another.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48647089

Another perv in mixed sex changing village
finnmcool · 15/06/2019 21:48

@Gingerkittykat I got a response to my email.

Thank you for your information request received on 14th June 2019, our reference: FL289. This is being dealt with in terms of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.

I note you have requested the following:

  1. Risk assessments regarding trans access to female changing facilities.
  2. Risk assessments regarding changing villages instead of single sex provision.
  3. Details of insurers, including policy number.

The Act allows us 20 working days to deal with your request from the date that we receive your clarification, but we hope to provide you with the information you are looking for at an earlier date where possible.

Kind regards
Gail

Gail Giraldas
Business Support Coordinator
Fife Sports and Leisure Trust
Music Institute
East Port
Dunfermline
Fife
KY12 7JA

S1naidSucks · 14/06/2019 01:21

VallarMorghulis it reads like a letter to handmaidens about the TRAs. 😁

VallarMorghulis · 14/06/2019 01:08

Oops sorry wrong thread

VallarMorghulis · 14/06/2019 01:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

finnmcool · 13/06/2019 23:56

@Gingerkittykat just emailed them.

To whom it may concern,

I would like the following information please.

Risk assessments regarding trans access to female changing facilities.

Risk assessments regarding changing villages instead of single sex provision.

Details of your insurers, including policy number.

finnmcool · 13/06/2019 23:42

@Gingerkittykat
The correct title for my thread was...
Risk assessments regarding clothes shops changing rooms

I know what you mean about not knowing where to start. I got some really helpful advice on there.

When I first approached GLL I asked to speak to the safeguarding officer.
I have been communicating with their national safeguarding officer.

On the back of the advice on my thread, I approached GLL insurers.
Hope that helps Grin

Original poster
Gingerkittykat · 13/06/2019 23:18

@finnmcool

It's Fife Sports and Leisure Trust.

www.fifeleisure.org.uk/

I'll go and have a look for your thread. I want to try and do something but don't know where to start.

OP posts:
Anlaf · 13/06/2019 15:56

As we know, this is not uncommon: courtnewsuk.co.uk/?s=voyeurism

Anlaf · 13/06/2019 15:55

This man plead guilty yesterday to voyeurism - after taking images under a cubicle partition in the family changing area of a Virgin Active Gym in East London

courtnewsuk.co.uk/perverted-geek-snapped-women-getting-changed/

finnmcool · 13/06/2019 15:38

Gingerkitty who runs that leisure centre?

To all of you who disagree with mixed changing rooms, please have a look at my thread.
Risk assessments for changing rooms. Emails to and from GLL and a letter M&S wrote me are on there.
I'm trying to hold companies accountable for their lack of safeguarding/risk assessments.

As an aside, GLL who run Better Gyms haven't risk assessed their trans access to female space policy.
I am waiting to hear back from Zurich, their insurers.

jay55 · 13/06/2019 15:31

Makes a nice change that the Sheriff didn't buy his story and has put him on the Sex offenders register.

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