Lily Allen “tried to avoid being a woman” because of the derogatory way her father spoke about them.

I'd also urge you to look at the title of the thread -

Lily Allen “tried to avoid being a woman” because of the derogatory way her father spoke about them.

I wonder if calling them "harpies" was one of the things he said about women.

So @Curious, on one hand you are agreeing that Lily was damaged by a father who used misogynistic slurs as part of what you described as " a fractured, unpleasant, damaging set of experiences", but on the other you are arguing that anyone complaining about the use of such slurs is being overly

Using the word "harpies" to describes women you disagree with is misogynistic. It is a word that has been used over decades to belittle, undermine, humiliate and degrade women and girls and only women and girls. It is used in an attempt to stop women talking about their opinions and in particular to stop them from complaining about sexism. It is not just in the eye of the beholder.

Your use of misogynistic slurs is harmful to women and girls whether you choose to accept it or not. I didn't use the term 'victim blaming' I referred to other having used it! I agree with you, it is a deeply inpleasant term, no matter how it is used.

And I didn't use a misigynistic slur! You may believe I did, but I didn't. Whether you choose to accept it or not I did not!

Which I supoose brings us to that ever present uber-PC ideology that offense is ALWAYS in the ear/eye of the beholder, regardless of the intent of the supposed offender or the misunderstanding of the offendee!

Don't know a lot about Lily Allen but good people made bad choices and people change when they work on themselves, I don't like to paint anyone as all black or white. Agree with RolyW - 'she is a flawed human being. Much like the rest of us.'
And Russel Brand does seem to be trying to make sense of the world with a modicum of compassion, even if he is utterly self-absorbed.

We are all "victims" of our upbringings. But as adults we are responsible for our own behaviour. It is not "victim blaming" to suggest that someone who has had a difficult relationship with their parents should not buy consent to other women's bodies.

The term "victim blaming" actually means blaming a person for the crime committed against them. NOT criticising a person for behaving badly after they have been treated poorly.

Your use of misogynistic slurs is harmful to women and girls whether you choose to accept it or not.

AH! I just realised, Roly you were thinking of harpies as being half bird half woman! Those ld stop motion films always had them protrayed that way!

I suppose at least half of mythologis have them as that. But initially they were wind spirits, fleet thieves who stole food from out of the mouths of their victims or took evil people off too be tortured.

Oh come on, most of us would sleep with her without being paid! I can't imagine it's a huge inconvenience to women who are used to having to sleep with really disgusting unpleasant and dangerous men for a living, not knowing whether they're going to come out of it alive or badly injured, or maybe with an unwanted pregnancy, to sleep with a young-ish beautiful woman instead. I'm pro Nordic model myself but i can't get worked up about this. Too much actual evil in the world.

Bollocks! Sometimes a mythological reference is just that! Being so uber-PC is a disease... one that is killing society, piece by piece!

That and I note you take umbrage at my mythological reference but not at the posters who are victim blaming, or whatever other unpleasant modern term you'd like to apply to their kneejerk nastiness!

The idea that money or privilege protects children from adverse experiences is as ridiculous as the idea that children who grow up in poverty will all grow up to be social deviants.

Her childhood had aspects of shitness, she had flawed role models, she is a flawed human being. Much like the rest of us.

She has every right to speak about her experiences of growing up and how this has affected her. No doubt her dad will also dismiss her words as 'a woman being dramatic'. As many toxic parents automatically do. Let's not make that mistake.

I think it's as we get older and have therapy that we start to realise that our relationship patterns were set in many ways before we could stand up for ourselves.

I grew up in a family where the only hobby most women had was bitching and gossiping and criticising and the men were all basically passive 'just let them get on with it types' who never would have dreamed of trying to protect young children from the endless humiliation and criticism. And the physical violence that underpinned it. Yes, it's messed up my relationships and yes, I now see it as my duty to myself to sort my head out so i can begin to function normally.

Using a misogynistic slur on a feminist forum makes you just as bad. Not looking for an apology, just pointing out the disconnect in your values.

Roly I have no intention of apologising for pointing out that some posters 'devour' the objects of their oddly obsessive dislike!

I don't really think it is all that uncalled for, when you read what said harpies often say about Ms Allen - some truly do go in for the kill. It is really unpleasant.

I agree with your points @Curious but they are somewhat undermined by calling mn users harpies.

Yes, MN harpies don't like Lily Allen. They see her upbringing as one of preferrment, monied, posh. They don't seem to be able to see that her public persona, unpleasant, self absorbed, ever changing as it is, could be the result of a fractured, unpleasant, damaging set of experiences.

No, she is pretty, has a modicum of talent, has money and doesn't seem to give two fucks what starngers think about her - oh, and she uses the media as part of her self adminstered therapy!

All of which only makes me grateful that I am not her! I'd not want to deal with the issues she has and have no idea what kind of person they would make me!

Can't add to what you said Cigars, it perfectly sums up my view.

Do I think Lilly Allen is a bit of an idiot?
Yes.
Do I think having Keith Allen as a father has caused her difficulties due to his attitude to women?
Yes.
However, Lilly Allen is an adult and needs to take responsibility for her own actions. The reason she's so well known is her father. Her amazing ability to put her foot in her mouth is all her own.

I don’t think she had much of a relationship with her father growing up and her mother also worked long hours.

But additionally she was sexually assaulted by a record label person and has had a stalker for several years who broke into her house at one point. She has said the police didn’t take it seriously for a long time.

Also she had a stillbirth. I feel there’s a lot gone on in her life (have just listened to a podcast with her, which is why I know so much). I am not condoning her use of prostitutes.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Lily Allen was a silly little girl with a very marginal talent which an extraordinary combination of good luck and the people her mother and father knew allowed her to exploit beyond any recognition it deserved.

She has grown into a silly woman lacking any self- awareness beyond whinging about her father.

As for not wanting to be a woman? Her trademark look was a prom dress.

I'm with you OP.

Given my childhood I hated and was frightened of men but despised women because I believed they were weak
I can see how Lily Allen has made many poor decisions and missteps

I dislike the conversation where we say anyone is playing a victim. Batting off criticism of that by mentioning her mother does not acknowledge the dynamics of her life. I have observed Lily and wondered all of what is underneath these behaviours
I don’t think she has had or is having an easy time in her head.

And interesting that some people can be accepted as having values that are on the whole offsenive yet still be treated with respect.

funnily enough one strong character can strongly influence A child especially if others around are complicit. We should be happy and supportive when adults start to question themselves and the things they learnt as children surely?

I grew up with a father who was abusive to me and my mother and also denigrated "females" (other than Pan's People on TOTP who he liked). I spent quite a bit of my childhood presenting as a boy. One of my friends thought he wanted me to be a boy.

But so many men are misogynistic I presume this is a common experience, though I've not really talked about it to anyone.

MN loves to hate Lily Allen..

I hadn't previously picked up on that.

I have now.

Your post is articulate and I agree with you OP. MN loves to hate Lily Allen and she can do no right according to some here.

*ya