Lily Allen “tried to avoid being a woman” because of the derogatory way her father spoke about them.

Rufflecrow, what if the women she paid were heterosexual and were completely turned off by having to sleep with a woman. They still have to pretend to be horny, pretend to like it etc. That's the thing about paying for sex, the desires and sexuality of the prostitute are totally and utterly irrelevant. Also, Lily Allen might be beautiful but that doesn't mean she's fanciable to every single lesbian ( let's just imagine the prostitutes did happen to be lesbian.) She paid for a service, using the bodies of other women, and their own needs and desires were irrelevant to her. They most likely would have preferred to be at home with a cup of tea, but they needed the money.

Ach. You're right, Lass. I forget who and where I was. I shall just slink off, taking my mythological beasties with me.

I have a very small, generally quite clean and tidy house. I'm sure if I paid someone to lick it clean that would be much nicer for them than a person with a huge grotty mansion doing so.

If the only people paying women to sleep with them were other attractive women, i'm not sure many people would see it as a huge problem

I certainly see it as a problem. You (general you) either approve of paid rape or you don't. I don't and I don't care how pretty the face or the genital configuration of the payer is.

I'm not sure there's anything 'morally repugnant' about an attractive woman wanting no-strings sex with other attractive women

No there isn't- but that isn't what happened is it?
There's no undercurrent of physical violence, no imbalance of strength, no history of oppression

She paid them to have sex with her. That makes her a punter. Being a pretty, female punter doesn't excuse it.

Oh dear curious

I missed out "always" in my earlier post. I'm intrigued by someone so keen on flaunting their intellectual superiority but who apparently is wholly unaware that harpies in mythology were almost always portrayed as female and that modern usage is exclusively female. How very bizarre; out of all the derogatory words you could have chosen you pick one which is now only used for women. Men are never called harpies. I'm sorry you have such a limited vocabulary at your disposal.

Yes there's an economic imbalance and the question of whether the women involved really consent

The problem with this is that when there is a financial transaction there is no clear consent.

There is also the fact that using prostitutes supports an industry that traffics, abuses and brutalises women and girls. Those women she paid for sex, didn't appear out of thin air awaiting her feminine touch.

Wow, a lot of disgust for Lily Allen.

I only know her as a person who's made some pop songs I like, whose Dad is a butthead and whose brother was Theon in GoT. I took her words at face value and think, yes, with such a forceful and aggressive misogynist as a father I'm not surprised she had plenty of internalised misogyny

I really don't see it that way. I'm not sure there's anything 'morally repugnant' about an attractive woman wanting no-strings sex with other attractive women. There's no undercurrent of physical violence, no imbalance of strength, no history of oppression. None of the usual issues that make prostitution such an issue. Yes there's an economic imbalance and the question of whether the women involved really consent. Assuming their consent was genuine and they actually wanted to have sex with her it's not a big deal imo. If the only people paying women to sleep with them were other attractive women, i'm not sure many people would see it as a huge problem. I'm assuming those women were freelance rather than working for a pimp, which would make it much more problematic.

Oh dear. Lass you are wrong, on both counts.

Harpies are not universally female - look at their origins - and I didn't say anyone was victim blaming, just pointing out a pp had used that term.

But hey! This far more fun to leap on than not, isn't it!

MN harpiesWow. If men are unpleasant, how do you describe them? Is there a good word for it, associated with their sex?

There isn't. I am reasonably knowledgeable about Classical mythology. I'm surprised any one familiar with the concept of a harpy is unaware that they are always portrayed as female.

I'm not in the least bit offended at being called an MN harpy simply because anyone who would use that description is someone whose opinion I could not give a fig about. I'm flattered more than anything. Particularly when that person exposes their own ignorance about the meaning of "victim blaming"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpy?wprov=sfla1

Though I think that is a pity, as sometimes monitoring langauage to a certain extent completely buggers your options for expressing what you feel. It homogenises, it denatures, it paralyses freedom of thought and speech. That and it can throw away hundreds, thousands of years of culture... today Ovid and Homer, tomorrow Shakespeare, Wordsworth

You sound like a very intelligent and creative person, I'm sure you will have no problems with expressing how you feel whilst also managing not to oppress another class of human. You can do it Curious.

Oh come on, most of us would sleep with her without being paid! I can't imagine it's a huge inconvenience to women who are used to having to sleep with really disgusting unpleasant and dangerous men for a living, not knowing whether they're going to come out of it alive or badly injured, or maybe with an unwanted pregnancy, to sleep with a young-ish beautiful woman instead

What a load of nonsense. Lily Allen might be less physically repulsive than the average punter but she is no less morally repulsive.

Consider me told, Roly

I shall change my lexicon and reassign harpy with immediate and lasting effect.

Though I think that is a pity, as sometimes monitoring langauage to a certain extent completely buggers your options for expressing what you feel. It homogenises, it denatures, it paralyses freedom of thought and speech. That and it can throw away hundreds, thousands of years of culture... today Ovid and Homer, tomorrow Shakespeare, Wordsworth

Juells You're late in on that. Could you read/re-read the xchange between myself and Roly for an explanation....?

You may still not agree with me but at least you would have done me the courtesy of having read what I meant!

And to answer you... I would have called a man acting in the same manner, swooping in on an individual and carrying them off for their punishment, a harpy too!

Thank you for your apology @Curious.

I will leave it with this - I am not personally "offended" by sexist language, this is not about pearl-clutching offense. But I do understand that the more we normalise the use of stereotypes in the language we use to describe women and girls, the more we normalise treating them differently to men at best, and the more we dehumanise them at worst. Lily Allen is only one women who has internalised the linguistic messages she received from the most important man in her life - all women if we look closely enough will be able to identify at least one way in which we have been affected by the language used to describe us or other women.

MN harpies Wow. If men are unpleasant, how do you describe them? Is there a good word for it, associated with their sex?

Lilly Allen is an adult and needs to take responsibility for her own actions. The reason she's so well known is her father. Her amazing ability to put her foot in her mouth is all her own.

Of course adults must take some responsibility for their own behaviour. I’m not sure why Brits have such an issue with Lily Allen, I’ve always found it weird considering the absolutely awful Male celebs that are adored...

Childhood has an impact on our adult lives. To dismiss this woman, someone referred to her as a ‘silly woman’ earlier, when she’s talking about the misogyny she grew up with, is very odd to me. Our childhoods don’t cease to affect us when we hit 18. My own father was an abusive, sexist racist pig, but fortunately he was always at the pub so my mother influenced me far more. If I was telling my story of my father and how it affected my adult relationships, my decisions and my happiness, I would be very surprised if a feminist board dismissed me as a spoilt silly woman.

Oh stop! That's getting silly now!

We obviously both think much the same but are getting hung up on a mythological creature.

As it offends you I apologise, sincerely. I had no intention of offending anyone when I typed it. I accept that you have a different understanding of the word, the mythological creature, and I apologise, unreservedly, for having used it in a manner that bothered you.

That I find such 'bothering' to be a sign of an overly PC world where individuals refuse to understand that they have no right not to be offended is a separate point and does not detract from my apology in any way.

Having an understanding of discriminatory language = populist?

Ok.

I have no interested in your sex . Just that your implication that me challenging you was misogynistic is wrong because a) you were clutching at straws and b) how am I to know your sex?

Our discussion clearly demonstrates the problem we have with the Keith Allen's of the world. The denial that language is an important vehicle for oppression allows people to excuse their behaviour and deflect from it by banging the "overly PC" drum.

OP, I think this is really interesting. I grew up with a father who, while never saying horrible things about women, did kind of just dismiss them as a bit of a joke. He teased me endlessly about my weight and put a lot of emphasis on women's looks. Eg, would dismiss Cherie Blair not because of her politics etc, but because she "had a mouth like a letterbox". I think his attitude to women was very detrimental to my emotional development and I really hope I don't inadvertently pass this on to my DC (boys and girl).

I agree with you about ignorance... you could have a second think too!

I am not actually insisting though. I am just trying to explain what you misunderstood. It has coloured everything you have posted to/at me. I don't need the benefit of anyone's doubt, how pompous of you! It is hardly my fault that you only know the populist version of what a harpy is!

Oh.. and did you really just side stepping asking me if I am a man?

1. Asking someone to consider (and reconsider) the use of their language on a feminist board does not count as haranguing let alone misogyny. You have been replying to my posts with your own counter "arguments" and I have no idea whether you are a man or a women?

1. I find it VERY hard to believe that you have never encountered the word "harpy" as a misogynistic slur before. But even if I were inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, your insistence that the problem was with me and not your language even after it was pointed out to you that this is a historically used example of sexist language speaks volumes. Ignorance can only be used as an excuse once.

No Roly Harpies being only women hadn't crossed my mind. As I explained!

I urge you to read all I did type! That YOU think of harpies as women, that anyone does, is fine, it is one of the presentations. But it is also fine not to, as they were not all women in various mythologies! That slur was in your eye, not my typing fingers!

Does haranguing count as misogyny too? As I feel you are ignoring my explanation, my understanding of what I typed and insisting you know my mind better... much as many of the posters I was initially disgreeing with do to Lily Allen!

…..PC!