The right to say 'no'

And here we are - the thread has come full circle. With someone whinging about kink shaming. Again.

The OP got it right. Women have a right to say "no" to whatever they don't fancy, without qualification, without excuses, without explanation.

The language of "kink shaming" is all too often used to try to take away this right from women.

I don't particularly care if people with kinks feel touchy about this. I don't care if they want to consensually swing from the chandelier licking peanut butter off each other's nether regions. That's fine.

I do object to them bringing that into the public domain. Do what the fuck (literally) you want in private, but I don't want to know. And I certainly don't want the bringing of kink into the public domain used to pressurise and groom women into sexual acts they don't want.

And, in a culture where male sexual violence against women is ubiquitous, and where 99% of convicted sex offenders are male, yes, I will pass judgement on male doms. Because I think the mindset behind it is dodgy as fuck, and I strongly suspect that a lot of them are using it as a cover to sexually abuse women without comeback. I personally don't give a shit about female dommes, simply because they are not a threat to me as a woman. The percentage of female sex offenders is so low that I don't actually have to worry about that.

Male sadists/dominants definitely deserve to be shamed/lkink-shamed

And female dominants don't I presume? That's nice to know.

I have a friend who is into the whole BDSM thing and who identifies as a dominant. I'll be sure to let her know that you don't think she deserves to be shamed in any way.

Oh yes, it's got far, far worse for girls. Choking, anal - choking can easily be lethal and most women don't get much out of anal, what with having no prostate. And the poor young things are being taught that sex isn't for their own and their partner's pleasure but only for the man. It's horrible.

I'm over 60. I'm an unreconstructed old hippie. My pubes grow as they will and my pits are unshaved. And yet in bed a couple of years ago a man older than me started telling me about a previous partner who had had her anus bleached. I suspect he was trying obliquely to get me to volunteer to have mine done. I never found out his motivation because I just roared with laughter, saying it was a totally bizarre thing for anyone to do and he let the subject drop.

Seems even blokes in their sixties are bringing up this sort of pornified nonsense.

Male sadists/dominants definitely deserve to be shamed/lkink-shamed. They should also hear the word "no" from women all the time.

Despite being around for decades feminism, the movement that gives women the space to say no, seems to have had very little impact sadly when you hear about teenage girls who basically feel unable to say no to anything sexual boys demand of them. It seems to be getting worse for women and girls, not better.

And don't qualify the no. The simple two letters will do
This is so true, I often simply say no, no additions, no qualifications, just no.
Men mostly stand and wait for me to qualify my no. I never do, it's quite funny. Some women wait for the qualifier too, but mostly they know me now and dont.
The men often do the famous MN head tilt waiting.

I don't have a terrific problem with silencing people when they insist on imposing their particular sexual kink on me without my consent.

This.

I couldn't give a monkey's what someone's sexual preferences are but I don't want it shoved in my face. And it's not about how 'different' it is - I don't want straight missionary sex pushing in my face either. Your fetish, your business, it's not that interesting and you don't need my approval.

" or, at the very least, should never be involved with children simply due to his connection with BDSM."
No, it was the link they made themselves between their particular fetish and their work (which involves child protection). That was the dodgy issue, not the kink itself.

"It is used very much to silence both women and men."
I don't have a terrific problem with silencing people when they insist on imposing their particular sexual kink on me without my consent. There is after all, a tremendous difference between saying yuck in the bedroom after you have consented to perhaps engaging in shennigans with this person, and saying yuck because someone insists on inflicting knowledge of their kink on you elsewhere.

It's only because certain people with unconventional sexual predilections seem to want to keep talking about them in situations where others are not terribly keen in hearing, and accusing them of silencing or shaming them when we object. And yes, I am more than aware of similar sounding things being done to lesbians or gay men, but there is a world of difference between a sexual orientation and a sexual preference. Particularly for lesbians where when I was younger, whenever I said I was a lesbian (my sexual orientation), I was often bombarded with questions as to exactly what lesbians did in bed (sexual preferences).

Some kinks deserve to be shamed.

Sorry for the accidental repetition!

Sorry for multiple posts the internet is being strange at the moment

Sorry for the accidental repetition!

Sorry I didn't understand your acronym Sam, and I too am sorry that happened to you.

I haven't seen those other threads you're talking about and you haven't linked to them so I have no idea in what context the term "kink shaming" came up on those threads.

However, in the absence of that context, I do really disagree with your definition of "kink shaming":-

Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people through coercive control / emotional blackmail into lowering someone's personal boundaries over sex.

No, it really is not.

Kink shaming is something that is used to show disrespect for both men and women over an unconventional sexual practice or fetish.

"What, OMG, you're into BDSM? You're such a pervert!!!!!" - this is kink shaming.

This sort of reaction to a whole range of sex acts is very common indeed. It is used very much to silence both women and men.

Even here on MN I read a thread just today where it was stated that a man had photos of himself online that indicated he was into BDSM and a number of posters on the thread insinuated that he was probably also a pedophile or, at the very least, should never be involved with children simply due to his connection with BDSM.

So, kink shaming is not a "euphemism" for anything it is something that is very real indeed. Replace the word "kink" with the word "slut" and it may give you an idea.

On the other hand, you talk elsewhere about having to say "no". Are there manipulative, controlling men who will try to push women's boundaries and use "You're kink shaming me!" in order to get their own way when a woman has simply said "No"? Of course there are.

But to simply say Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people is totally wrong on a lot of levels.

I haven't seen those other threads you're talking about and you haven't linked to them so I have no idea in what context the term "kink shaming" came up on those threads.

However, in the absence of that context, I do really disagree with your definition of "kink shaming":-

Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people through coercive control / emotional blackmail into lowering someone's personal boundaries over sex.

No, it really is not.

Kink shaming is something that is used to show disrespect for both men and women over an unconventional sexual practice or fetish.

"What, OMG, you're into BDSM? You're such a pervert!!!!!" - this is kink shaming.

This sort of reaction to a whole range of sex acts is very common indeed. It is used very much to silence both women and men.

Even here on MN I read a thread just today where it was stated that a man had photos of himself online that indicated he was into BDSM and a number of posters on the thread insinuated that he was probably also a pedophile or, at the very least, should never be involved with children simply due to his connection with BDSM.

So, kink shaming is not a "euphemism" for anything it is something that is very real indeed. Replace the word "kink" with the word "slut" and it may give you an idea.

On the other hand, you talk elsewhere about having to say "no". Are there manipulative, controlling men who will try to push women's boundaries and use "You're kink shaming me!" in order to get their own way when a woman has simply said "No"? Of course there are.

But to simply say Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people is totally wrong on a lot of levels.

Sorry I didn't understand your acronym Sam, and I too am sorry that happened to you.

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.

I don't.

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.

I don't.

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.

I don't.

CSA= child sexual abuse.

I am sorry that happened to you sam

Anyone who uses insults and refuses to accept no is obviously out of line samyeagar but even though you acknowledge you are much less likely to be raped and killed I don't think you understand how much that changes the whole equation.
Imagine the person wanting to have sex with you and calling you a 'limp dick' was actually a man twice as big and strong as you.

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.
But what is a CSA victim?

It's the difference between acknowledging differences between the sexes and saying those differences mean we should give people a kind of lesser value as human beings.

This ^

I regularly piss of certain types of men, and some women, by saying no. I’ve noticed it a lot with landlords and landlady’s. My husband can say the same thing to them and they’re much more understanding & respectful. Both saying No, and standing up for my legal rights, I’ve found more difficult than my husband has.

We don't trust you in our spaces sam

If that bothers you then you don't get it and you have no business here