Latest Caster Semenya Race

" But it has not been known what advantage intersex variations have. Nobody had done any science on intersex athletes as few of them existed until a decade or so ago. It is not robust enough to say 'it's obvious' for it to be a truth, a known fact. Research had to be done"

Nonsense, in fact.

There are a few points here:

• XX people are shorter, for various reasons
• XY people are stronger, because of testes.

Caster Semenya has testes, and processes testosterone.

There is no possible research however that can prove statistically that Caster Semenya has an advantage with a given DSD, given that said DSD is too rare to perform any sort of controlled study on

The evidence of that has been presented to the courts in the form of a study purporting to show that extra testosterone is advantageous only in certain events,.and therefore that XY 'women' should restrict their testosterone, is little better than fraudulent. Even someone with very basic understanding of statistics could see that when your 800m dataset includes multiple XY athletes with functioning testes, then that is going to distort results. Equally I don't give a flying fuck whether a woman who has double the testosterone of another woman, but still just 5% of Caster Semenya's level, is faster or slower.

The so-called science showed nothing more than their being no correlation between athletic performance and a high or low female.level of testosterone. They only got anywhere because their dataset includes biological males.

If you don't accept as a starting point, and without the need for supposed science that you take on face value, that people with functioning testes, producing testosterone, THE performance-enhancing steroid, do not belong in female sport, well you have a problem with logic.

I did feel sympathy for Caster, but honestly her 'I will continue to fuck over women in any way I can' attitude..is hardening me a bit.
Same.
Up until the point CS knew they were biologically male then I supported them. But 10 years knowing and now coming out saying 'oh well ban me from 800 because I can win any women's event I choose to enter' has been the nail in the coffin for me. Nobody can claim they have no advantage of being biologically male on one hand and then on the other say 'screw you ban, I'll pick any other women's event and win there instead'.

And Caster Semenya, as well as running like a man, living like a man, having male biology - thinks women are "boring and soft" in this interview. Yet still happy to win their races. I have a lot of sympathy for CS as a child in rural Africa - not so much as a post-puberty adult who now knows the score but still wants the fame and money.

The ruling only applying to 800m is ridiculous.

Caster wants to keep the biological advantage that being male gives her over being female. She does not want to lower testosterone as basically, she knows she would have to train harder and it will even out the playing feed somewhat. That Caster has been allowed to compete with women all this time is wrong, but not Casters fault. And 'transwomen' jumping on the intersex train to also compete against women is just vile.

I did feel sympathy for Caster, but honestly her 'I will continue to fuck over women in any way I can' attitude..is hardening me a bit.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should

Now here you are on a feminism board asking why we don’t feel sympathy. My god.

It was the OP's question! I think that in her shoes I would run or jump if I were allowed to do so. I would earn money to secure my future. I would not volunteer to give up my career if I was operating within the rules. It is up to the sporting authorities to make a decision (I do not think that she should be able to run fwiw). But I totally have sympathy for her doing so if she is allowed.

“So 25% don't have periods? And should automatically assume they are men and withdraw from sport?”

Any 15-16 year old girl who had never had a period should have a medical evaluation, yes. And if that athlete was also virilised then that evaluation would include a karyotype.

I have sympathy. As similar describes: she thought she was a girl, grew up and then found out she had a condition/diagnosis/difference. Not pleasant. Not nice.

But she chooses to continue to run and compete. And her latest statement basically says :'I've been told I can't compete in the 800? Not to worry I know I'll win any other race I choose to enter'.
Actually confirms our views and concerns on this matter and of how she sees herself.

What a mess. how has this been allowed to happen? and how can we move on from this now?

Because she grew up believing herself to be a woman and found out as an adult that she had a disorder of sexual development, was infertile, has male chromosomes and internal testes. You may disagree with her decision to keep running, but it's pretty hard hearted not to have sympathy for her. What other career was she offered?

Again, Caster did not find out as an adult.
The reason people don’t feel sympathy, is because for at least a decade, likely more, they have been competing knowing of their advantage. As for what other career was offered, offered by who? Nobody owes you a career. You make it yourself. Added to that, her coach has referred to Caster as he, Caster refers to girls and women as ‘them’, and has said numerous misogynistic things. Now here you are on a feminism board asking why we don’t feel sympathy. My god.

Before Caster knew about being intersex they weren't a cheat. Once the medical investigations were carried out and it was discovered she is XY with all the physical advantages that confers and she continues to race against XX - that's what makes her a cheat. I do feel some sympathy for her situation but I feel a hell of a lot more sympathy for the female athletes who have devoted their lives to a sport they have no hope in hell of winning when they're competing against XY intersex athletes. Fucking awful.

'Intersex' events, as a separate category. Then they can all compete amongst themselves. If there are lots of intersex athletes, then this can surely be accommodated.

Men's 100 metre final, women's 100 metre final, intersex 100 metre final.

Can't we just have separate XY events? Surely that's the way it's going? Give CS her own Olympics. I can't take to her at all. There's something deeply unpleasant about her self-centred views.

Tell me again why I should have sympathy for this person

Because she grew up believing herself to be a woman and found out as an adult that she had a disorder of sexual development, was infertile, has male chromosomes and internal testes. You may disagree with her decision to keep running, but it's pretty hard hearted not to have sympathy for her. What other career was she offered?

The authorities have ballsed this up - rail against them - but to blame her, or say as others have done that she should have realised that she was a bloke when she was a child with no periods who could run fast, or say that she is a deliberate cheat? Really?

So 25% don't have periods? And should automatically assume they are men and withdraw from sport?

Socialisation is irrelevant. There’s a huge difference in the class backgrounds of footballers and canoeists. Sport is about performance within categories segregated primarily by sex, and occasionally by age or weight. We don’t have categories for ‘fastest runner socialised as a girl’ any more than ‘canoeist who didn’t get into Oxbridge’

I hope that if you wandered around running clubs and told all the 15 year old girls with no periods that they were obviously men and cheats, someone would give you a cup of tea and a cold compress.

You mean all of those virilised “female” athletes who had a sudden spike of performance at pubertal age?

I hope that if you wandered around running clubs and told all the 15 year old girls with no periods that they were obviously men and cheats, someone would give you a cup of tea and a cold compress.

I think it is unlikely that a 15 year old female athlete with no periods and big muscles would intuit that they had a rare condition

I am as gender critical as you like, but CS, socialised as a girl and woman, finds out in her 20s that they are XY, suddenly did not have the disadvantages of girlhood? Bollocks.

Why do you say 20s? It would have been evident at puberty, when periods didn’t happen and virilisation did.

I would also argue that the starts do not distinguish between complete and partial androgen insensitivity. There is no competition in which all participants are karyotyped. So any CAIS women will not be picked up and therefore do not contribute to the averages - more androgenised, partial androgen insensitive people will be studied.

I should have been clearer, that I was talking more broadly than CS. The discussion upthread was that anyone XY should not be able to compete, that they were men and probably cheats. I think that people with CAIS would legitimately consider themselves women.

I am as gender critical as you like, but CS, socialised as a girl and woman, finds out in her 20s that they are XY, suddenly did not have the disadvantages of girlhood? Bollocks.

You can't have it both ways. She did not confirm to female gender roles in her teens (as it turns out,physically responded to testosterone in a partially male way, without her knowledge or understanding). Therefore she was always a boy? Isn't that pretty close to saying that performing another gender role makes you another sex?

I understand the argument but a reductive XY thing misses some nuance