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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vatican statement on gender ID

43 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 17:14

I've only heard it on PM R4 so far but it sounded sensible.

Declared it an ideology.

Can't find original statement.

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Jux · 11/06/2019 17:23

I haven't read the Vatican doc yet, but I saw the Archbishop on the BBC News. It was very short piece, but he said very sensible things - except he always said 'gender'. I have emailed him to suggest that he stop conflating sex and gender.

The BBC piece is here, at 16.25, lasts about one minute! www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcnews?rewindTo=current

polarisation · 11/06/2019 13:22

The full text of the Vatican document is here (pdf, 32pp). I haven't read it yet!

There's also a longer summary on the official Vatican News page here.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 11/06/2019 08:33

Presumably this will strengthen the right of Catholics not to be discriminated against on the basis of religion if they say Men who identify as women are not women? Including single sex spaces?

nettie434 · 11/06/2019 08:26

I have learned that the Vatican doesn’t go in for flash websites! Grin.

It seems to be aimed at people in education and is not really written in the way I imagined from the news coverage.

I found this translation from a news agency in Vatican City. Seems a bit longer than the extracts I read here but so offering this to those who wondered about translation:

zenit.org/articles/new-vatican-document-provides-schools-with-guidance-on-gender-issues/

Apollo440 · 11/06/2019 01:03

Well it will help governors of Catholic schools send the gender ideologues packing. Not that they'd have allowed them in anyway.

Goosefoot · 11/06/2019 00:41

I wonder if a couple of parts have been lost in translation.

That's possible, though I think they typically use their own translators. They do use a lot of language in a way that's not very accessible to the general public though as its directed to people who are already familiar with it, its like reading outside of your academic discipline.

MarDhea · 10/06/2019 21:12

Am very excited to see the impact of the statement in Ireland where self-id was pushed through with little discussion and where very high proportions of the population are practicing Catholics.

Most people in Ireland are really not practising catholics. Cultural catholics, sure - that's the box they'll tick in a form, and they'll probably get married and buried with a mass.

But paying the slightest attention to what the pope thinks about anything? Nah. People here really don't take any notice of what the Vatican pronounces on contraception, ivf, homosexuality, abortion, etc. so the Vatican's view on trans issues is going to be just another thing to ignore.

My prediction is that the IT and Indo will dutifully report it, but it won't make it into most Irish people's radars at all.

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 21:02

I'm a complete atheist too; there is definitely an interesting correlation in terms of an ideology that tells you you're a bigot (and therefore going to social right wing hell) constantly on twitter, in the media, etc for having a view whereas for the most part the other ideology that has its entire basis in the fiction of heaven and hell is respectful of views (doesn't cry bigot you're going to hell) and recognises the truth of biological reality.

I know some extreme religious cults will happily tell you you're going to hell but they're generally ignored by the general population or Louis Theroux makes a documentary about you. Oh wait...

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NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 20:55

I struggle with parts of the actual statement posted up thread (thanks to the pp who did that) ; I wonder if a couple of parts have been lost in translation.

The parts quoted by Reuters though seem very clear and logical.

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SomeDyke · 10/06/2019 20:52

There lies the lesson
Yeah, I just had to plod through to get my head round why I was suddenly thinking the catholic church was being reasonable! Which I think basically boils down to they keep a clear line between what is factually true, and what they believe. TRAs don't, in fact they require that someones personal totally subjective belief about themselves trumps anything objective anyone else has to say. It's a hell of a leap, makes transubstantiation look easy!

Total atheist BTW, which is why being in this position is slightly weird!

Goosefoot · 10/06/2019 20:45

Really, the Catholics are nothing if not scrupulously logical.

Goosefoot · 10/06/2019 20:43

Media reports on religious topics are notoriously unreliable. Long ago many newspapers had specialist reporters who had enough knowledge base to cover them fairly well, but that is rare now. Reports like this one are't easy to read for a lot of people.

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 20:41

Yes somedyke

long as I am allowed to argue about them and not compelled to believe in them, then that is fine.

There lies the lesson.

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NeurotrashWarrior · 10/06/2019 20:36

Need to read thread but I've already spotted some reports confusing sex and gender even though the report gets it right 🙄

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Mamello · 10/06/2019 20:25

Yes DpWm its own internal logic. But I don't want to derail this thread so won't get into a theological discussion here. But be assured at least my own internal logic won't force you to have to use my own preferred pronouns Smile

SomeDyke · 10/06/2019 20:20

This separation is at the root of the distinctions proposed between various “sexual orientations” which are no longer defined by the sexual difference between male and female, and can then assume other forms, determined solely by the individual, who is seen as radically autonomous. Further, the concept of gender is seen as dependent upon the subjective mindset of each person, who can choose a gender not corresponding to his or her biological sex, and therefore with the way others see that person(transgenderism).'"

I actually don't have a problem with this as a position I can argue about. So, as regards sexual orientation, this seems to be based on male and female natural and male with female for procreation cos that is what sex is FOR. Whereas, from a scientific point of view, sexual and capacity for sexual pleasure (think bonobos here), has primary purpose, if you like, of sexual reproduction, plus secondary purposes (like being used by bonobos to help alleviate group tension). Other forms of sexual orientation though, whatever your personal definition of your own sexuality, has to involve others and hence from a practical point of view, involves biology in terms of who does what and to whom and with what. Which is possible female to female or male to male, as bonobos know as well, so as 'natural' as anything else. Whether you think this is a good thing or not is up for debate, and what you think your particular god might do if you do it is also up for debate, if you insist.
But gender in this analysis, and this I would agree with, is subjective, and then the problem comes if you try to insist upon an alignment of your subjective opinion about yourself or your own identity, with what others say/think about you. You can't (and shouldn't, I think) try to control the thoughts of others about you. So, as regards lesbianism, I would not require anyone to pretend that a lesbian marriage is just like a heterosexual marriage, because in terms of things like procreation it isn't, and would be bloody stupid to pretend it is, lesbian couples require difference services to have kids than straight couples. But we are already used to many religions viewing marriages as less valid than others just look at divorce etc, or civil marriage as compared to a religious ceremony. I don't want anyone to ignore biology here. I may disagree with certain religious or ethical viewpoints, but as long as I am allowed to argue about them and not compelled to believe in them, then that is fine.
But with TRAs, as we all know, biology is out the window, subjective rather than the objective, and dissent not allowed. That is why I can partially agree with this statement by the (modern) Vatican, not because I necessarily agree with the conclusions or the basis of their beliefs, but because there is a large degree of commonality as to what matters and what is unacceptable. You can only argue with someone after all if there is a common ground of some sort, the problem being that is not allowed with TRAs, because the initial disagreement is wrongthink, and the grounds for how we determine what is true/a good argument, well, we aren't even allowed to debate!

In a nutshell, the catholic church at least has dealt with the right of other religious belief systems to exist even if they think they are (mostly) wrong -- TRAs haven't! Which is why in religious terms the catholics are more progressive than TRAs. Funny ole world...........

DpWm · 10/06/2019 20:00

it's own internal logic
What, that humans can die then come back to life? That virgins can give birth? That if we don't do certain things or do do certain things during our lives we will be condemned to eternal hell in an afterlife? That logic...?

Mamello · 10/06/2019 19:32

DpWm

No we wouldn't lap it up because we're not stupid and can see clearly the difference between a belief system that has it's own internal logic and whose main tenets are to love yourself as you are and to love other people as ourselves. This contrasts sharply with the trans ideology as I understand it.

Goosefoot · 10/06/2019 19:29

I'm glad they have put this out, most of it is completely logical from a Catholic standpoint but North American congregations have been struggling in many cases as the laity don't really understand the principles they are working from. It's likely to be useful outside of Catholic circles as well.

ludog · 10/06/2019 19:03

I'd say that most Catholics in Ireland are more cultural Catholics rather than fully practising tbh.

DpWm · 10/06/2019 18:53

It's a very topsy turvy world we live in, when an establishment based entirely on belief in a sky-god called "Our father" or "God" (always male), Virgin births, that someone can come back alive after being crucified to death, miracles, angels, etc... doesn't believe in gender ideology.

You'd have thought they'd lap it up.

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 10/06/2019 18:49

Original document

wetransfer.com/downloads/12e9deeb99912fb3f5f6cd1f799e00cc20190610145054/fc1f09

"The 20th century brought
new anthropological theories and with them the beginnings of gender
theory. These were based on a reading of sexual differentiation that was
strictly sociological, relying on a strong emphasis on the freedom of the
individual. In fact, around the middle of the last century, a whole series
of studies were published which accentuated time and again the role of
external conditioning, including its influence on determining personality.
When such studies were applied to human sexuality, they often did so
with a view to demonstrating that sexuality identity was more a social
construct than a given natural or biological fact.

  1. These schools of thought were united in denying the existence of
any original given element in the individual, which would precede and at the same time constitute our personal identity, forming the necessary basis of everything we do. "

"Furthermore it was suggested that one could uphold the theory of a radical separation
between gender and sex, with the former having priority over the latter.
Such a goal was seen as an important stage in the evolution of humanity, in
which “a society without sexual differences” could be envisaged."

'In this cultural context, it is clear that sex and gender are no longer syn-
onyms or interchangeable concepts, since they are used to describe two
different realities. Sex is seen as defining which of the two biological
categories (deriving from the original feminine-masculine dyad) one be-
longed to. Gender, on the other hand, would be the way in which the
differences between the sexes are lived in each culture. The problem here
does not lie in the distinction between the two terms, which can be inter-
preted correctly, but in the separation of sex from gender. This separation is
at the root of the distinctions proposed between various “sexual orienta-
tions” which are no longer defined by the sexual difference between male
and female, and can then assume other forms, determined solely by the
individual, who is seen as radically autonomous. Further, the concept of
gender is seen as dependent upon the subjective mindset of each person,
who can choose a gender not corresponding to his or her biological sex,
and therefore with the way others see that person (transgenderism).'

'Gender theory (especially in its most radical forms)
speaks of a gradual process of denaturalisation, that is a move away from
nature and towards an absolute option for the decision of the feelings of
the human subject. In this understanding of things, the view of both sex-
uality identity and the family become subject to the same ‘liquidity’ and
‘fluidity’ that characterize other aspects of post-modern culture, often
founded on nothing more than a confused concept of freedom in the
realm of feelings and wants, or momentary desires provoked by emo-
tional impulses and the will of the individual, as opposed to anything
based on the truths of existence.
20. The underlying presuppositions of these theories can be traced back
to a dualistic anthropology, separating body (reduced to the status of in-
ert matter) from human will, which itself becomes an absolute that can
manipulate the body as it pleases. This combination of physicalism and
voluntarism gives rise to relativism, in which everything that exists is of
equal value and at the same time undifferentiated, without any real order
or purpose. In all such theories, from the most moderate to the most rad-
ical, there is agreement that one’s gender ends up being viewed as more
important than being of male or female sex. The effect of this move is
chiefly to create a cultural and ideological revolution driven by relativism,
and secondarily a juridical revolution, since such beliefs claim specific
rights for the individual and across society.'

'This ideology inspires educational programmes and legislative trends
that promote ideas of personal identity and affective intimacy that make
a radical break with the actual biological difference between male and female.
Human identity is consigned to the individual’s choice, which can also
change in time'

'In the light of this reality, we can understand
why the data of biological and medical science shows that ‘sexual dimor-
phism’ (that is, the sexual difference between men and women) can be
demonstrated scientifically by such fields as genetics, endocrinology and
neurology. From the point of view of genetics, male cells (which contain
XY chromosomes) differ, from the very moment of conception, from
female cells (with their XX chromosomes). That said, in cases where a
person’s sex is not clearly defined, it is medical professionals who can
make a therapeutic intervention. In such situations, parents cannot make
an arbitrary choice on the issue, let alone society. Instead, medical science
should act with purely therapeutic ends, and intervene in the least in-
vasive fashion, on the basis of objective parameters and with a view to
establishing the person’s constitutive identity.
25. The process of identifying sexual identity is made more difficult by the
fictitious constract known as “gender neuter” or “third gender”, which
has the effect of obscuring the fact that a person’s sex is a structural
determinant of male or female identity. '

'Efforts to go beyond the constitutive male-female sexual difference, such as the ideas of “intersex”
or “transgender”, lead to a masculinity or feminity that is ambiguous,
even though (in a self-contradictory way), these concepts themselves ac-
tually presuppose the very sexual difference that they propose to negate
or supersede. This oscillation between male and female becomes, at the
end of the day, only a ‘provocative’ display against so-called ‘traditional
frameworks’, and one which, in fact, ignores the suffering of those who
have to live situations of sexual indeterminacy. '

stumbledin · 10/06/2019 18:47

By coincidence have just seen a comment about this on facebook, where the poster points out that the article makes no sense because for whatever reason (modesty? ignorance?) they do not use the word sex at all.

So having said gender is an idiology, they then say their analysis is based on biology and science and nobody can change gender (when presumably they meant nobody can change sex).

Maybe the actual document does, but the report doesn't. Smile

www.thetablet.co.uk/news/11771/gender-theory-an-ideology-that-contradicts-science-says-vatican-

DrG · 10/06/2019 18:25

Oh good. Am very excited to see the impact of the statement in Ireland where self-id was pushed through with little discussion and where very high proportions of the population are practicing Catholics.

Amalfimamma · 10/06/2019 18:16

I'll have a look at the original document in Italian later but some MPs and Senators in Italy have come out to state that the basis of the document will be adapted to Italian schools as they will protect children in their "right not to be indoctrinated in vacuous ideologies"

Another senator has said
(gender ideology is)
"authentic social experiment borrowed from North American universities to indoctrinate children from an early age, eliminating all sexual identity and forcing them to choose from dozens of different genres"

LGBT associations in Italy have so far made no statements

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