A feminist take on Game of Thrones

I see other posters have picked up on this, but 'men with tits' sounds like something straight out Gender Roles 101. It really does imply there are female and male forms of behaviour.

I think 'men with tits' means more than women not conforming to femininity: it's about whether the writer created what was actually a male character, just with a female name, because the writer couldn't really conceptualise a woman in that situation.

Because female characters need to be written as women rather than as individuals with distinct personalities and motivations?

7Days. I’ve only read a couple of Robin Hobb’s Fitz books but they didn’t strike me as particularly feminist. The main characters are male, the female characters are just there as the love interest and the society is traditionally misogynistic. Am I missing something?

By the way I'm not defending him in any way just saying my memory of it is different

There are so many misogynistic scenes this one just didn't stand out amongst all the others

She grabs a knife to kill him when he comes in the room. They then struggle over the knife and she becomes even more committed to killing him. It's then clear they are both trying to kill each other.

My memory is that it's absolutely horrible but that she is trying to kill him.

Robin Hobb is a brilliant fantasy writer from a feminist POV, a brilliant writer full stop.
GOT came after for me and I couldnt hack it at all. Same with others, she's ruined me.

Tyrion kills Shae in self defence, she's trying to kill him?

No, he kills her because he finds his lover in his father's bed, and would sooner she was dead than fucking his dad. Making absolutely no allowance for the minor detail that her choice was probably either Tywin's bed, or a grave.

Doesn't he kill her out of self defence in the show and because of jealousy in the book? He definitely was misogynistic though.

Tyrion kills Shae in self defence, she's trying to kill him ?

No, he kills her because he finds his lover in his father's bed, and would sooner she was dead than fucking his dad. Making absolutely no allowance for the minor detail that her choice was probably either Tywin's bed, or a grave.

Tyrion kills Shae in self defence, she's trying to kill him ?

Pratchett is an amazing writer of female characters. Just brilliant.

No, and I wouldn't apply the term to Sansa, Cersei, Margaery etc. Although I have other issues with things that were done to their characters.

I just consider Brienne and Arya (my personal favourite characters) to be suspect in this area.

The Pratchett comparison is an interesting one. Most of his female characters (Granny Weatherwax, Tiffany, Polly, Agua etc) are strong, brave, kick ass women without having any masculine traits whatsoever.

But there was only one female assassin, and one female knight, and the latter is nearly raped. Cersei was, I think, considered by most people to be a strong woman, even if she did use sex to manipulate men. It was one of the few tools at her disposal. Catelyn, Olenna, and Margaery, amongst others, were also strong women who weren't written in a stereotypically male manner.

There's no way Sansa (to take just one example) is a man with tits. Her formative experiences included fear of menstruation, sexualised assault, forced child marriage, threatened gang rape, abusive marriage, marital rape...you get the picture. You could indeed argue it as deeply misogynistic, but those are experiences that women tragically still have today. She is a survivor, who has fought to rebuild herself, and be in a position of power. As a woman.

I think 'men with tits' means more than women not conforming to femininity: it's about whether the writer created what was actually a male character, just with a female name, because the writer couldn't really conceptualise a woman in that situation.

This is what I mean by men with tits. It's a criticism of the writer, not a comment on the characters. They wanted to write a "strong woman", didn't know how to, so wrote a man and slapped on some female markers. Alternatively "Oh I should have some more female characters in here, which ones can I swap over..." Nothing to do with ladybrain bullshit.

My feminist take - Tyrion was a misogynist and the fact that he is portrayed as a one of the more heroic characters is worrying and an indicator of how blind we are to misogyny. He strangled his lover. But its ok as it was a crime of passion. Strangulation is such a common, and often under prioritised, form of violence against women. Many women who end up dead reported incidents of strangulation before their death.

successful women, in general, are men with tits

By this I mean that we view women in society as being successful if they exhibit the traits we value in men, or succeed in something that we would celebrate men succeeding in.

I need to watch the series again from the start, and I haven't read the books, but I know Martin has been specifically praised for being able to "write women well" and has patted himself on the back over it too. I can see the "men with tits" point, but I think it's symptomatic of how we see progress for women in general under patriarchy - successful women, in general, are men with tits (in many cases, literally!) We look at women doing women's thing and teach them to aspire to do what men are doing - it never occurs to us to elevate the status of what they're already doing! So "strong women" become assassins and knights, while pretty Sansa who wanted to wear dresses and marry a prince gets raped and sold. There's also a healthy dose of women using sex to manipulate men, and I was very at the big group of men sitting around at the end talking about rebuilding the brothels as top priority.

I did really enjoy the series though and, for all I've just said, I really liked Arya, Brienne, and Sansa (not so much Daenarys). I hadn't come to feminism at all, let alone radical feminism, when I started watching it though, so wasn't watching it with that eye.

Is a “man with tits” a female-bodied person with a man’s brain and a man’s personality? Is that how we’re doing feminism now? I didn’t get the memo on that, and it sounds pretty similar to gender theory ladybrain bullshit to me.
One thing that I loved about GoT was the range of strong women portrayed. Arya, Sansa, Cersei, Margaery, Brienne, Olenna, Daenerys, Yara, Osha, Melisandre, Ygritte... all very different. Not all admirable. Not all attractive. Not all likeable. Not all right or brave all of the time.

This 100%! I think there were many excellently written women.

Sansa had a fantastic character arc. She went from slappable brat to Boudicca without the transition ever feeling forced.

Is a “man with tits” a female-bodied person with a man’s brain and a man’s personality? Is that how we’re doing feminism now? I didn’t get the memo on that, and it sounds pretty similar to gender theory ladybrain bullshit to me.
One thing that I loved about GoT was the range of strong women portrayed. Arya, Sansa, Cersei, Margaery, Brienne, Olenna, Daenerys, Yara, Osha, Melisandre, Ygritte... all very different. Not all admirable. Not all attractive. Not all likeable. Not all right or brave all of the time.

I think 'men with tits' means more than women not conforming to femininity: it's about whether the writer created what was actually a male character, just with a female name, because the writer couldn't really conceptualise a woman in that situation.

You see the reverse in some slash fiction where male characters are in essence women in the way they think and respond, and aren't believable as males, despite the described physique and performance of masculinity. It isn't that they're men stepping outside stereotypical roles, which would be so much more interesting to read.

I don't think we should dismiss women who don't conform to society's standards of femininity as men with tits.

Its noteworthy that the best female charecters are women doing male roles (assassin/knight)

I don't think this is true, for me anyway. I thought the best female characters were Cersei, Olenna Tyrell, and, by the end, Sansa. They specifically play on feminine elements of themselves to secure power. Cersei especially.

Do I think that any man could write a good female character, yes

I give you Granny Weatherwax