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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genuine question re “living as a woman”

95 replies

PinkyU · 07/06/2019 20:33

I’m a woman and therefore (imo) “live as a woman”, this involves be being addressed in female pronouns, accessing woman’s toilets/changing rooms etc unquestioned, being seen as “safe” by other women, experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female. (I purposely don’t add anything related to fertility, pregnancy, female diseases, breastfeeding as these things are not necessarily experienced by ALL women, if that makes sense.) if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman (under my poorly defined criteria)?

If (as I’ve seen on posts in this board) living as a female is not a “thing”, I don’t understand the drive to segregate things and experiences as only for xx women, wouldn’t that then be living as a woman because only women can then experience these things?

I know this is a bit confused and garbled, it’s not a concept or idea I’ve considered before, but rather than processing it from a singular (fairly liberal) view, I feel I should open myself to views and ideas I wouldn’t naturally gravitate towards.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 07/06/2019 22:05

The reason women talk about the specific oppressions we face connected to biology when we address the concept of 'living as a woman' is because they preclude men from ever being able to do so. It's not because there actually is some kind of ephemeral 'living as a woman' experience. I'm not always addressed as a woman - quite a few times I've had people call me 'sir'. I'm not 'living as a man' when they do that.

As a concept it's as nonsensical as a cat 'living as a dog' because we call it a good boy and take it for walks on a lead.

TheHodgeoftheHedge · 07/06/2019 22:04

I am a woman - I have XX chromosomes and a vagina. I am living. That is “living as a woman”.

motherofcats81 · 07/06/2019 22:02

Experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female - I'd argue this is what most trans women don't experience. They certainly haven't grown up with it, and most adult trans women don't truly pass - they are largely perceived to be trans by the discriminating class, not biological women.

If you doubt this, just look at how the voices and needs of trans women are prioritised above those of biological women or, indeed, trans men. It's not because they are perceived as women, it's because they are not!

That's not to say trans women don't experience discrimination, of course they do, but it's not sex-based. Nor have they been socialized as women with all the consequences that result from that.

Plus, being discriminated against as visually female is not just because of appearances, it's because of the perception of membership of the reproductive/care-giving/sex-providing class).

Barracker · 07/06/2019 22:01

Every one of the nearly 4 billion females on the planet currently alive is 'living as a female'. The children 'live as girls', the adults 'live as women'

So tell me.
Other than being alive, and female, and adult, what are the necessary characteristics of 'living as a woman'?

There might be no meaningful similarities between me and a woman on the other side of the world in how we live our lives. But we both live as women.
There might be few similarities between Joan of Arc and me, but she lived as a woman, and so do I.

There will be experiences that are ubiquitous, whilst almost but not entirely universal. And they will relate to our shared female biology. Menstruation. Pregnancy. Menopause.

But if you called me 'he' from birth to death I'd still be living as a woman.
If I used unisex toilets from this day on, I'd still be living as a woman.

I'm alive and I belong to the sex class female. That's all there is to it.

DpWm · 07/06/2019 21:58

^meant to bold the first para

DpWm · 07/06/2019 21:57

*...accessing woman’s toilets/changing rooms etc unquestioned, being seen as “safe” by other women, experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female... if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman?
Firstly by transpeople in this case I assume you mean transwomen?
Your only talking about the tranwoman who passes. It's very rare for transwomen to experience life being obviously and visually female. Very rare indeed.
Any transwomen who does go through life with the experience of being "obviously and unquestionably female" will have had to go through an extraordinary amount of painful permanent surgical intervention, be taking hormones daily, would have had their voice box operated on, all sorts of things, and this is not your basic "living as a woman" experience. Far from it.

Living as a woman does not involve going to extraordinarily extreme lengths to portray yourself as female. That's living as a transwomen. It's very much living as a transwomen. It's very different.

Most transwomen don't experience life as a woman. They experience life and are treated by the world around them as a transwoman, having people stumbling over their correct pronoun, ppl getting their name wrong sometimes, getting side-eyed in the women's areas, etc all these experiences are a far cry from living as a woman.

It's impossible for a transwoman to live as a woman.

Goosefoot · 07/06/2019 21:52

I haven't read the responses yet, I wanted to add my own thoughts.

I'm not sure that "living as a woman" is a very meaningful phrase, and that might be why you are running into trouble. It's been used in the sense of a person passing as a woman in social life, and in that sense I think it means all the things you have said. It doesn't really say anything more than that though. It doesn't mean the individual has the feelings or thoughts of a woman, and it doesn't mean the person is a woman.

It's when people try to imply there is something more to it that it gets into trouble.

Ratonastick · 07/06/2019 21:51

ByGrab. 👍. Gutted for Hicky. I took DS to his first BSB race when he was 7!

But seriously, I like bikes and cars and am fairly uninterested in traditionally girly things. And I run my career and household without male assistance. That is living as a woman.

picklemepopcorn · 07/06/2019 21:51

Being female involves discrimination from the moment you are conceived.

Should a trans identifying male be able to pass as a woman, they still would not be 'living as a woman' because they would not have experienced the constraints women are subjected to from birth.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 07/06/2019 21:49

Nope...this is heaven

I'm in bed trapped under a sleeping baby

Ive just attempted to put ds2 (16) in a headlock so I could get a kiss

julensaor · 07/06/2019 21:46

Where are the transmen winning in sports, not a hope in hell - stick a trans male in against any male in boxing and the match is a complete and utter joke. Why? 30 trillion+ XX cells that no artificial hormone can change.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 07/06/2019 21:44

Right now, I am sat on the sofa, watching the motorbike racing (...), i’m drinking beer while wearing jeans and a shirt.

I'm in bed trapped under a sleeping baby, but that sounds like heaven.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 07/06/2019 21:41

Many women don’t have any access at all to women’s toilets or changing facilities.

It is a major reason girls globally stop attending schools.

It may interest you to know OP that this is now a growing reason in the UK that girls are taking time off school and/or refusing to drink during the day as well.

LangCleg · 07/06/2019 21:40

"Living as a woman" is a concept originating some decades ago with gatekeeping for medical and surgical interventions for those with sex dysphoria.

It is a sexist concept invented by male doctors to assist male patients. It has no relevance to the lives lived by actual women: it is a euphemism for using women's spaces before medical intervention.

Again: it has no relevance to the lives lived by actual women

HTH

Ratonastick · 07/06/2019 21:39

I’ve been thinking about this a lot of late. I am heterosexual and a mother. I have subsequently had a hysterectomy so I no longer have the reproductive capability.

Right now, I am sat on the sofa, watching the motorbike racing (i’m a huge and dedicated fan and attend the TT every 2-3 years), i’m drinking beer while wearing jeans and a shirt. I don’t like dresses as much as jeans and I wear make up for work and going out but that’s it. I have a high performing career. And i’ve just sorted out the bins.

I am a woman, I live as a woman. There is no doubt in my mind. But I seem to have “man” characteristics. And that is the bullshit. I am 48 years old and have spent my whole life being told and believing that I can be and do anything I want and that being a woman shouldn’t be relevant. The trans rhetoric is so backward looking, it’s about old fashioned perspective of performing a masculine version of femininity that many (most?) women don’t recognise anymore.

Endofthedays · 07/06/2019 21:35

Sorry, a global women’s rights issue.

Endofthedays · 07/06/2019 21:35

Many women don’t have any access at all to women’s toilets or changing facilities.

It is a major reason girls globally stop attending schools. Access to safe sanitation facilities for women is a global women’s rights experience.

So access to those facilities is certainly not a universal experience in terms of ‘living as a woman.’

Lasttobepickedatgames · 07/06/2019 21:26

I'm living as a woman because I've got xx chromosomes and that means my reproductive organs are designed to release an egg, carry a child to term and subsequently feed that child.

Things like toilets and changing rooms are segregated because unfortunately most sexual predators are men (xy chromosomes and designed to provide the sperm for the egg) The segregation provides an element of protection.

I actually don't mind unisex facilities when they are properly thought out taking the above risk into account.

Michelleoftheresistance · 07/06/2019 21:25

Women being a biological group 'excludes others'?

You mean it excludes men. Yes it does. That isn't naughty of women you know.

callmekalinda · 07/06/2019 21:24

I think the types of discrimination faved by women worldwide is also very determined by their ethnicity and financial status.

Some issues in terms of discrimination could potentially also be faced by certain transpeople.

Please explain what you mean by this, OP. What issues?

julensaor · 07/06/2019 21:18

what a load of horse shit. I should never ever need to say what defines me as a woman. It all gets very simple. If you are born with xy chromosomes, no amount of dressing it up or down in the genital area or hormone medication can change the xy in 30 trillion cells in the human body. And conversely nothing stops you from being male again ... FULLY... if you stop hormone treatment, regardless of genital area status. Stop asking people to define themselves when they have XX chromosomes, it is so insulting. 30 trillion cells lads, come on.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 07/06/2019 21:15

I get where you're coming from, but the thing is, "living as a woman" isn't a discrete list, and even things from your list aren't universal.

being seen as “safe” by other women - I've met women before that I didn't feel safe around. Not as many as men, but certainly a few.

experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female - again, not all women experience this. Watch Hannah Gadsby's Nanette, she talks a lot about the discrimination she faces as a butch lesbian through not being obviously visually female enough.

And uniquely female things like menstruating and giving birth may not literally happen for every woman, but every woman is affected by them. If you don't start menstruating, or you stop menstruating, part of your "lived experience" will be to go for medical tests. You'll worry about what it means for your future fertility. Whether or not you carry a pregnancy, you're still affected by the possibility of it. You plan around contraception, ask yourself hypothetical questions about what you'd choose if you became pregnant, stress over your "closing window of fertility", worry about which time of life is best to have a child, field questions from family members on the subject, experience the pressure of advertising and media to have children. You still experience these things, even if it turns out you can't have children, or even if you choose not to have children. Our biology affects every step of our lives, even if that affect comes from the lack of our biology presenting or progressing in a "normal" way. Transwomen will never, can never, experience this. When a transgirl doesn't start menstruating at puberty, no one takes that child for tests, because no one ever expected them to menstruate. They'll never need to worry if their period is late, or ask themselves if they could go through with an abortion, or feel ashamed for bottle feeding because they should have tried to breastfeed. Every woman experiences and is affected by female biology, even if their experiences differ. No transwoman experiences female biology, ever.

Now, I do agree that if a transwoman passes well, and is not known publicly to be trans, then they will experience some similar treatment and discrimination. Street harassment is an obvious example of this, being judged on their appearance, and maybe having assumptions made about them based on the belief that they're female (i.e. thinking they're of "child bearing age" even though they can't bear children, dismissing them as it being "that time of the month" even though they don't menstruate). But that's not living as a woman, it's just living as if they were a woman. We don't live as if we're women, we just are women.

My basic point is that "living as a woman" isn't a set of experience that can or should be gathered. It's not like visiting a theme park called "the woman experience". Are you a woman? Yes. Are you alive? Yes. Congratulations, literally every single thing you do is "living as a woman". Being harassed, menstruating, not menstruating, being treated as safe, kicking puppies and mugging grannies, going to work, getting drunk etc etc. In the context of the legal requirement for transwomen to "live as a woman" a more accurate phrase would be "pretend to be a woman". That's cruel, so they wouldn't say that, but that's what it means. And although we've all seen pictures of pretty and well passing transwomen, most don't. Really, most never will. For all but the most convincingly medically changed, they will always be read and treated as either male or trans, not as female.

RubberTreePlant · 07/06/2019 21:10

Well, you've conveniently chosen to disregard all the biological processes - and body parts -that are inherently female, so of course, after that, your reasoning makes no sense whatsoever.

redexpat · 07/06/2019 21:04

We dont wish to be seen as a biological group. We are one. Yes we live as women and yes that excludes men. If a man wants to put on a dress and have long hair they should be free to do so. But that isnt what makes a woman.

HamiltonCampbell · 07/06/2019 21:04

I could have short hair, not wear make up, use unisex loos exclusively, get called Hamilton, wear trousers and I'd still be living as a woman because.....I'm a woman. Genetically.