Genuine question re “living as a woman”

No they're not.

That you think they are stupid questions does not mean that they aren't sincere. I spend a lot of time with young people, to most of them, these phrases are the ones that they have been hearing for their whole lives that they can remember. What seems natural and obvious to you sounds alien and new, and they don't understand the way the discussion is put together.

Telling people their questions are simply invalid and not worth a response will do nothing to help them see a different perspective. All it leaves them with is what they already have.

What does 'living as a gorilla' mean? If I go and live in sub-saharan Africa among gorillas and do as they do, does that then make me one? No, because I'm not a bloody gorilla. Insert any other species... if I eat ants, does that make me an anteater? Nope.

You can't 'live as a woman' if you're not actually a woman (XX and all that follows). What people usually mean when they trot this out is gender stereotypes but women have quite a lot of different personalities so you'll always find many, many actual, biological women who won't perform stereotypes.

You can't just disregard biology. Life doesn't work like that.

@Justhadathought very good points

I find this idea that biology can be ignored because not all women menstruate, conceive etc completely misses the point. As a previous poster said, every woman's life is influenced by menstruation, every woman has to consider her fertility and biological clock in a way men do not. Women who do not want or cannot have children are perceived differently from childless men so their decision making will not be the same. Menstruation, pregnancy, birth, menopause are universal female experiences and affect all of us even those who are infertile or cannot menstruate. Men seem to be incapable of understanding this.

these are all reasonable questions

No they're not.

As I said above, the only reason this ludicrous phrase, living as a woman, is even bandied about is because it was the gatekeeping employed by male doctors assisting sufficiently insistent male patients to get medical and surgical interventions.

It's a sexist concept originated by patriarchal medicine.

Nobody lives as a woman - whether they're actual women or men who want to be women. People just live. Some of them are men and some of them are women.

I'm not sure why people are giving the OP grief, these are all reasonable questions regarding how to think clearly about language and concepts. People do talk about the idea of "living as a woman" so I imagine a lot of people wonder what that actually means, or have the impression its important somehow.

Anyway, to the OP - the idea "woman" isn't about what people do, it really is a biological category, like dog or rosebush or hydra. It is all about drawing lines, all words and scientific categories are about drawing lines. And sometimes we redraw them, too, maybe we realise what we thought was two species are actually one species, or we realise some characteristic we were thinking was important, isn't.

Woman and man, what are they then? The lines we are describing there are reproductive role. We reproduce sexually and there are two roles, this is defined by our dna. And pretty much everyone belongs to one or the other, even if things don't work properly or look quite right.

is there some cause to revisit the lines drawn there? Well, let's say we did, we decided to use the words men and women differently. Would we then have no reason to talk about, or have word to describe, those sex roles? I would say yes. Farmers will still want to talk about whether they are buying a cow or a bull, and we will still want to talk about sex roles, be it to discuss our reproductive organs or maternity leaves or who we would like to go out on a date with. As long as we need the words, I can't see a reason to change them for some other arbitrary set of sounds.

It doesn't really matter how men or women live, if men become second class citizens serving dinner in uncomfortable shoes while women conventionally sit around scratching their crotches - they will both still be living as women and men.

Well said, Justhadathought. This is just the usual example of women trying to be nice to a disingenuous poster.

Brings to mind Ian Duncan Smith He took part in a TV reality programme a number of years ago. He, along with a few other well known/celebrity people, were to spend a whole week living with a family living on the poverty line.

He couldn't hack it. And didn't even spend one night with the family. He, apparently, took a phone call from his wife saying she was very ill - and had to leave the production.

Then he went on to be the mastermind of austerity. Punishing those people who he could not bring himself to face living with for just one week.

I lost all respect for him then.

I think people here are being exceedingly generous. If you were a white person trying to claim you were black because of some inner identification and feeling - you'd have been shown the door a long time ago. Nobody would tolerate it.

What makes you think that identifying as the opposite sex is any different?

"the exclusion of others."

Yes, it excludes others. It excludes those who are not women. Why are people (OP) pretending this is so hard to make sense of?

women wish to be seen as a separate biological group

I don't think women wish to be seen as a separate group; they just are - on account of their biology; their body - and all that comes with that.

But if we - women wish to be seen as a separate biological group, are we not them living as women?

Yes, female people who are alive are living as women, regardless of what they are doing, everything they do is as a woman as they are female. We don't 'wish to be seen as a seperate biological group' to men, we just ARE.

I do not understand you wanting to disregard biology when defining what a woman is to be honest. As when you take biology out of it, there is no such thing as a woman and its just 'people'. But even then, it would be useful to have a word for the class of people who are female, yes? So round and round it goes. People who are not female claiming the word that female people use for themselves, thus making the word useless, female people are called something else, but dresses, but toilets, and then women are again left unable to name themselves or speak about their own oppression as without the words to use, how can you speak of things like that? If you refuse to see sex, you cannot possibly see sexism, or do anything about it.

I’m that it is to the exclusion of others.

I can make no sense of this, however given the word exclusion is there I will take a guess and say that yes, the word woman excludes others. It excludes people who aren't women. Because, they aren't women. And women are a certain class of people, those who are female. Those who are not female, are male. Its not excluding people just to be mean or anything, its just kind of how words work. They have to mean something and honestly, I find it ridiculous that theres all this handwringing about what a woman is these days when for many many years, everyone has known what a woman is. Its only recently that people seem to try and make out its this complicated thing, when its really not.

I think the types of discrimination faved by women worldwide is also very determined by their ethnicity and financial status

Discrimination operates along many lines & based on some of the factors that you mention. However, behind and beyond those is the position of women as a class: regardless of social background; colour; creed. Women are united a s a group; as a class of human beings.

I recall, back in the day, that many black women, for example, found it difficult to locate themselves in terms of their oppression: some opted for race; others opted for sex. Although I can obviously see that both apply, the status of woman - whatever colour - is the bottom of the pile.

based on being obviously visually female

You see, I don't think that just resembling a stereotypical female 'presentation' is the same as 'being a woman'. Even women who do not conform - in terms of dress, outward appearance and behaviour - are still women, and will receive treatment based on their biological sex.

People instinctively register sex, even when presented with non-stereotypical presentation.

I have a rock. I name it grey. And it's just for you 😘

OP, the 'logic' in your post is giving me a headache. Males cannot 'live as women' as the only way to live as a woman is to be a woman. If a woman was simply any person who said they wanted she pronouns and went into the womens for a piss then woman is uterly meaningless and should be abandoned as a class of people tbh. Thogh we still need a word for those of us of the female sex.

The bit about being 'seen as safe by other women' does not apply to males tbh as a lot of women would not see a male as 'safe' like women even if he said his pronouns were she and walked into the ladies changing room. The 'being obviously female' part is odd. No male is obviously female so that doesn't apply either.

So the 'logic' leads me to, anyone who claims they want to be known as she and uses areas that are meant to be for female people, is a woman. Which is clearly bonkers. Sorry.

Mind, you say uses female areas unquestioned too. So that can probably be discarded for the vast majority of males. So that leaves us with, anyone who says they use she/her pronouns is a woman. Which is just TRA drivel really.

I'm not on board with 'no discussion', I'm afraid. I'm not justifying myself, but I am quite happy to address misconceptions and language that obscures and mislead.

Things I have done as a woman (i.e. stuff I've done contingently because I could have chosen otherwise while being a woman because that's what I happen to be rather than being a man): football, PhD in STEM subject, dress making, rock climbing, baking, stroking cat (who happens to be sitting next to me) playing violin in a symphony orchestra (good), playing bass in a rock band (bad don't call us, we'll call you)...

Things I have done as a woman because only women can do them: had periods, given birth, breast fed.

Things I have had done to me because I am a woman and therefore (incorrectly and contingently) been deemed to be lesser compared to men (a distinction made via correct factual recognition of my biological sex even if the status ascribed to me in consequence is the result of erroneous reasoning): had to take an employer to court to get equal pay.

Does that help any, OP? Ian, as a matter of biological fact, a woman, therefore anything I do is done as a woman, regardless of what arbitrary label society attached to it.

if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman (under my poorly defined criteria)?

I think that women always subliminally fear male violence, and instinctively feel physically intimidated. I do get it that gay men and transvestites might also feel physically under threat from men, but I'd suggest far less so.

Women can become pregnant through rape. The fear; threat; reality of pregnancy, is not something to be dismissed. Physical & biological reality shapes emotional response and feelings about the self. It is not just about pronouns and clothing.

There is no uniform 'living as a woman'. My experience as a woman is different to each and every woman. I don't wear makeup a lot of the time, I usually wear trousers, I take medication to stop me from menstruating. I have been lucky enough not to feel like I have been discriminated against because of my gender or been victim to crimes against me because of my gender. Does that mean I am actually a man?!

I really struggle with the idea that a man can grow long hair, put on a face of slap and a skirt then call himself a woman. Because that is not what being a woman is about to me.

I can't describe or define what it is or articulate it in any way that would make any sense to anyone. But I am a woman and a trans man is not.

I don't "live as a woman" I don't think. There is no woman way to live, women live in all sorts of ways depending on their interests, tastes, environment, resources. I live as my self, and I happen to have female biology so that self belongs to the category "woman". Woman isn't something you act or dress up as. I can't live differently and stop being a woman any more than I can change that I'm white or that I'm human.

and on and on it goes, look at everyone here, validating themselves as women whether they are feminine of not. ~~Stop discussing it, refuse the toilets, just say NO, no discussion, no need to self-validate, the word is NO.

‘Being obviously visually female’ - but those who aren’t actually female are only superficially visually female , the ‘ ? ? ‘ kicks in really quickly, no matter how flicky the hair or how thick the makeup.

experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female

I require time to reflect on your post before commenting further; but could you clarify what sorts of discrimination you have experienced on account of being perceived as female; and how did you respond; deal with feel about that?

'Woman' is biological, it means adult human female. If you are socially perceived as female you will likely be treated in a certain way. Transwomen try to create the illusion they are female so they will also be treated in this way. They can never truly emulate biology which is why TRAs argue that being a woman is all about the social construct.