Boundaries and Allies

Janie143
current threads about Debbie Hayton & Kinesis' involvement with DrEm's decision to shut down her twitter account:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3624063-Is-twitter-having-a-purge-today

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3624694-Has-DrEM-been-banned-from-twitter

I've missed something What has DH got to do with losing Dr Em?

Been out all day, missed everything but am catching up now.

Debbie can fuck the fuck off to fuckidyfucktown and fucking stay there making its population a grand total of 2.

Debbie and glinner.... Sitting in a tree..... K I s s i n g..........

………....yet Debbie has repeatedly heard women's concerns and feelings here, and is still clear that they intend to use women's spaces and facilities anyway. Their main interest is in preventing other males from doing so.

When I realised this, I finally took the step from 'people who have medically transitioned, yes ok in women's spaces' to - 'no males in women's single sex spaces. At all. Ever.' Because this always, always, always boils down to males seeing themselves and their interests as superior to women and about forcing women to prioritise them. Which is all about oppressing and subordinating women. It's the 21st century, men can fuck off with that.

What a load of stinking patronising hypocrisy.

'I've lived alongside them' like we aren't fully human.

Debbie doesn't empathise, look at this whole thread. Doesn't give a flying about women's concerns unless Debbie can use them to amplify their own voice.

I'm angry with the some trans women are women stuff. No.if we let one male in we have to let them all.

It seems that thanks to some women pandering we are losing a lot of great female, feminist voices. It's the academics who have developed their feminism over years and that's why they wont just be nice: Dr Em, Dr Long, Professor Shelia Jeffreys. How long until they come for Dr Jones?

Who else has been pushed out?

Yes Dana, I like Jenn, I get the impression they are fighting for others. They put our other 'allies' to shame and make it stark that people like Debbie are only fighting for themselves. Is it any wonder that someone so narcissistic as to think they can alter reality with their words only cares about themselves?
No to Self I'd, unless it is me because I'm special. No to compelled speech, unless it is me because I'm special. No to no one being unquestionable, unless it is me because of my feelings.

The 'I'm busy/tired' or let's talk privately that Debbie always does when Debbie cant or wont answer a question is getting on my nerves.

Yes Katniss it's terrible to have lost Dr Em. Her research on the insidious nature of paedophilia has been invaluable. These people have tried for decades to have their interests accepted by the mainstream. Now a quick glimpse on any social media will show just how emboldened they've become in recent years. Scary times ahead I fear.

molesmokes has made an excellent comment regarding Jenn Smith. Jenn won't be everyone's cup of tea, does tend to veer a bit to the conspiratal in some videos, then again I love a bloody good conspiracy theory, and Jenn does speak quite honestly of his (Jenn has expressed preferred pronouns as he/him Mumsnet) journey (my word I'm making Jenn sound like a reality TV contestant).
What Jenn does to earn my respect is that he is actively speaking out against SOGI123 which is to my understanding Canada's version of No Outsiders in UK (Safe Schools here down under). Not an easy thing to do in Canada. It's nice to see someone putting children first instead of their own needs.

Thanks to Hayton and the other 'allies' looks like we have lost Dr Em.

Anyone promoting Hayton as spokesperson for anyone other than Hayton needs to read the transwidow thread then watch Hayton and Hayton's wife in Stella O'Malley's documentary

Ayerobot Yes, it reminds me of 'men don't need to put on a dress to assault women'.

It's all self ID - don't they get that? It's just that a GRC puts an official stamp on it.

There's always an undercurrent of "we're in your spaces already and there's nothing you can do about it bwaahhaa" about all of this that comes across as sinister. Not sure if that's intentional?

Hayton was never an ally to women. Trojan horse more like. He uses Self ID FFS. He doesn't want GRCs because he has it all already and without women having to consent or be forced by law - just by his own personal acts of control and force (mental rather than physical).

Yes while some men listened to Hayton there was always the fundamental hypocrisy that undermined any GC leanings he purported to have and any writing he did eg the TES piece giving advice. That piece was equivocating bullshit. It was all bullshit and some fell into the trap of appeasement or gratefulness or settling or using DH even, and it all played into Hayton's self serving fantasy.

I will not buy into promoting them or anything they write - it damages the GC cause every time. We need to set our standards higher than 'allies' like Hayton. Women deserve better.

And actually I think that men who invade women's spaces without consent are as bad as those who seek to do it by force of law. Worse maybe. The deception, the taking advantage, the 'go on I dare you to say something', the victimy acting that is so offensive to true victims, the blood sucking empathy demands when women are afforded so bloody little.

If you have a mental health problem truly own it and seek truth and treatment. That is brave. That is something I can respect you for and support you with. Don't expect women and girls to suffer to be your enablers while you harm us.

We are where we are because of men like Hayton. They were the vanguard.

Hayton I have seen more as a "resource" than an "ally". (Hayton has stated that he does not intend to apply for a GRC and that he accepts male pronouns - in case this gets reported to Mumsnet Mods ).

Hayton has said the "right things" in the "Serious Press" and many men pay attention because,

a) they see him as a man and

b) they have respect for his "serious, respectable, manly-but-intellectual" job (physics teacher) and "serious" citizenship (union activist) and

c) they perceive his views as having the backing of other men, ie. because of where he gets published.

I say this because of the feedback I have received from men when I have shared a clutch of articles by Hayton and others whose writings I think are helpful.

This did not make me feel obliged to consider Hayton as an "ally" or to have any particular personal feelings towards him.

However, I do have personal feelings about Hayton. The notion that I should have was prompted by comments made by Jenn Smith on Twitter, regarding access to women's spaces like public toilets (screenshots).

This was the first clue I had that Hayton's public pronouncements might not be reflected in his personal behaviour:

"These "champions" of the "middle-path" become awful quiet when u start asking important questions like this. Furthermore, any laws that allow KJH & Debbie Hayton (who is no friend of women) access subject to surgical status will eventually be struck down by human rights challenges . . . I still believe if you are born male you use male facilities, I do all the time and nobody has touched me."

( Smith says he is a "transgender identified male" and uses male pronouns - I think that is relevant to this discussion, Mumsnet Mods.)

I have dipped in and out of this thread so I will have missed some posts. However, I have read enough to know that if I ever again think it would be helpful to share one of Hayton's articles that it will be with gritted teeth and with regret that in doing so I will be promoting his hypocritical arse!

This whole "allies" thing is a bit weird anyway. I see how the trans lobby utilises it effectively and even commercialises it with badges so on. It is very "cultish" and manipulative though, particularly how they use it with the, "you are not a true ally unless you . . . " demands.

Would it be healthier to frame things more along the lines of refusing to talk about men, "helping with the housework" . (Issue-based, I am not talking about feminism.) Apologies for being vague and if this has already come up and I have missed it.

Whatever, nobody is perfect but "allies" who push at and try to sneak past the very boundaries they say they are helping us to defend, who try to tailgate into our spaces by doing a "best buddy" act?

"It's bad news for the GRC transwomen who use those spaces"

I can't unhear that sentence.
Or the unspoken "and me" that he doesn't quite add.

I think Mhairi Black is quoting the EA confident that it isn't been used and knowing that organisations are too confused by it or too frightened of the consequence of using it incorrectly.

Hayton is concerned that the EA might be used correctly for the safety and dignity of women and girls.

I’m confused by DH’s comments, isn’t Mhairi Black quite against sex-based protections?

I wonder why Hayton thinks there isnt any exceptions and it's never been possible to exclude male transpeople from female spaces?

Women have been talking about this for years and why it's vital that the EA remains and used more widely.

The mask has slipped.

Ffs 'As far' not 'Astra'

Astra as I'm concerned the grouping around DH and KH can crack on doing their own thing, as I started to learn more about the issues I was glad that some TW could see women's point of view but I've become more educated on the issues and moved on in my views.

Stella's documentary crystallised my uneasiness with DH.

Women's movements should be led by and centred on women. One of the reasons I support Jean H is she is uncompromising on this.