Boundaries and Allies

Maybe I have not made myself clear. I am not arguing that single sex loos are not important.

To be clear, I don't think Debbie, as far as the admittedly limited conversations I've had with them go, uses womens loos.
The fact they were making a joke about the convoluted ironies of the battle for womens rights, is what I was referring to when I said it reflected the difference between a mans point of view and a womens, if that makes any sense.

Basically a bloke, however committed, and we have no reason to believe Debbie is not committed, can have a laugh about it, where as a women not so much.

Toilets really aren't trivial, just 'politics'or something to be laughed about.

Imagine a 13yr old girl who is being sexually abused. She goes to the the school toilet desperately hoping to see that her period has arrived on time. Now imagine that the toilets in her school are mixed-sex, or 'single-sex' but allow males who identify as a girls to use them. This girl is learning that she cannot even have a guaranteed moment that is completely away from males, despite her utter vulnerability in that moment.

Now imagine that the girl is a little older, maybe 15. She is no longer being abused by the man who groomed and abused her for much of her life. However she has started to be subjected to sexual harassment from other males. Each time it happens she asks herself what she is doing wrong. She completely recognises that males pose a significant risk to her, and whilst she knows that it is probably not all men, she cannot figure out a reliable way to tell which men are dangerous. She finds it increasingly difficult to be in certain situations with men. Sometimes she has to 'force' herself to do it but that always comes at a cost. She is plagued by nightmares both of her past and what might happen in the future. She also experiences flashbacks which may be triggered when she is feeling vulnerable around men and are even triggered by the smell of a man. She wants to use the toilets at her school without the additional harm to her wellbeing, that fearing or knowing a male is next to her will bring. She also feels that she cannot speak out and explain about her past, her vulnerability and her need for single-sex spaces such as toilets.

Now imagine that she wants so much to succeed and have a 'normal' life. She wants to be able to use single-sex spaces, including toilets and changing rooms to navigate her way through her life and through society, except they have gone. They have gone from her university, where she is told that it is transphobic to be concerned by a male in the women's toilets. They have gone from the shops she needs to visit, which either mislead about having female single-sex changing rooms and toilets, or have now installed mixed-sex facilities. In fact, they have gone from the gyms, cinemas, workplaces and even the hospitals. How does she navigate her way though society now?

Toilets are very important. To her, to other vulnerable girls and to many women for many different reasons. Toilets may not be the area that we should focus on primarily, but breaking the boundary of female single-sex toilets is definitely not a laughing matter and our concerns are not just 'politics'.

I would also like to add that as far as I know Debbie does not and never has self ID in to womens spaces, they have always been emphatic on the point that they are only ever invited in to womens spaces, otherwise its strictly no go.

I feel compelled to defend Debbie here, for a few reasons, some about Debbie and some about the wider movement.

I don’t know a lot about Debbie though have met them a couple of times at GC talks, seems genuine enough to me and definitely seems engaged with the wider arguments in an intelligent and honest way.

As far as the tweet about loos goes its important to note that a) Debbie is not and does not claim to be a women, and therefore does not have the visceral anger a women would have over the erosion of her and her sisters rights. This is just a fact, its an intellectual and moral issue for men rather than life or death, full humanity, like it is for woman. That does not make them a bad person. b) quite a few people are not that bothered, on the surface of things, about actual loos. Its the destruction of women’s rights and dignity as a distinct class within humanity, our achievements (including the achievement of not committing violent crime), safe spaces from male violence and just the hatefully judgmental male gaze, scientific truth, freedom of speech, political freedom, safeguarding, and all the other shit that goes with the TRA agenda.
I also believe a man who genuinely engages with feminism, not some woke wanker obviously, is something to celebrate.

Though I fucking loath that women center men anywhere and I especially loath the latest craze to center men in feminism ffs. But it would be naive to ignore the fact that men and many women, society as a whole, hear men in way they just don’t hear women, and if we can find men who will genuinely shout for us then it would be idiotic not to use that to change things.

As far as Debbie goes, it must be hard as a TIM to not only resist the brave and stunning narrative but to take flack for sticking up for women.
I dont know, maybe Debbie will come out and declare they were fooling us all along but for now, as far as we know, Debbie very much seems to be, at some personal cost, someone trying to stay on the right side of reality and morality.

What monstrous unfairness is being imposed upon a generation of little girls, that we are ordering them to submit to grown men breaching every boundary and protection they have? Because these men aren't JUST telling the middle aged women on twitter to suck it up, buttercup.

They're telling my wisp of a daughter, and yours, that she cannot keep them, or any man, away from her, in any circumstances, ever.
That she cannot say no. That they are the ultimate power, and she is utterly powerless.

Very much this^.

Great post Barracker

The ones with the GRCs say they should be the exception.
The ones with surgery say they should be the exception.
The ones with truefeelings say they should be the exception.
The ones who write nice letters with lovely signatories say they should be the exception.

And eventually you realise you're watching adult men arguing about which of them are the best, truest women, the most entitled to be called female. Whilst actual females, women and girls watch in astonishment, realising they're talking about US AND WHICH OF THEM CAN BE FORCED UPON US. And my question is not, hmm, who are our allies, which ones shall we pretend for, what do we concede, how shall we look reasonable, where are the compromises, let's have a lovely discussion about this.
My question isn't, what sort of tolerance level can robust, adult women achieve that can allow them to withstand some men forcing themselves upon us.
No, my question is this.

What monstrous unfairness is being imposed upon a generation of little girls, that we are ordering them to submit to grown men breaching every boundary and protection they have? Because these men aren't JUST telling the middle aged women on twitter to suck it up, buttercup.

They're telling my wisp of a daughter, and yours, that she cannot keep them, or any man, away from her, in any circumstances, ever.
That she cannot say no. That they are the ultimate power, and she is utterly powerless.

We have to turn this whole horror around. We cannot stop until I can look my sweet girl in the face and say, it's not going to happen to you, we've stopped it.

I've just seen this diatribe on twitter from a GRC holder:

I will go spare if I have to hear one more thing about chromosomes, sperms and chuffing gametes. These things don't need to be discussed!! Yes...
I can't have babies.
I can't have periods.
I am male in some (irrelevant) ways.
I am not intruding into female space
.... It's my space too because I am female. This has been won already. The law of this land (the UK) is that my sex is what I say it is (having gone through the hurdles that involves). That is a fact. That law is not going to change. We've won. End of.

DH explained, with fastidious politeness, that 'women' like DH had been using female-only facilities for years.

How would Hayton know this?

Its never been ok for male transpeople.to use female facilities. Im about the same age as Hayton and I've never known a time when it has been acceptable for male transpeople to use open plan changing rooms in shops or swimming pools.

I think they just hear other transpeople talk about it on chat rooms and think it's true.

I think "old school" transexuals sometimes appear as allies as they don't want self ID to come in as that will really fuck things up for them.

Doesn't mean they don't want to keep things as they are for themselves.

Not all hens, Raven though unfortunately foxes only listen to those saying what they want to hear.

We have to remember that our supposed allies were very happy to take advantage of the recommendations of the Women's and Equality Select Committee, and for Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence and other pressure groups who promoted the lie that TWAW.

They wouldn't be in women's spaces now if the Trans pressure groups had lost the argument and women's representatives had been listened to, in Parliament.

It was only after radical feminism broke through, in places like Mumsnet, that trans "allies" changed their tune. Co-incidence? Nah!

In real life, I've found a real sense of resistance against the Trans people who have networked into organisations or who volunteer at events with 'women' in the title. A few months ago an enthusiastic AGP bounced into the room, asking: "What do you want me to do. How can I help?"
There was a pause as each of us imagined the words: Feck the feck off.
Then one woman said with a straightface: "Could you put on a high vizzi jacket and look after the top car-park?"

They weren't dressed for car-park security duties!

I don't get why women are thought of as rehabilitation centres for men. Of course trans feelings matter but it is not women's problem to placate them by handing over our rights.

To take a different look, should all men with mental health issues be allowed into female only spaces because they feel vulnerable? Having a bad day, come on mate join the ladies?

No GC woman here is saying trans people's feelings don't matter. What they're saying is the solution cannot be to hand them women's spaces and women's rights. The obvious way that meets all needs is third spaces. Anything else involves removing rights from women to give to male born people and calling it a 'compromise' that they're still allowed a few rights. For now. A bit. If they're quiet about it.

I respect DH on a number of issues, but DH is clear: they intend to use women's spaces, whether or not women consent or mind, or whether or not this excludes some women from having any facilities at all. It's hard not to see both the male entitlement and superiority there, the total lack of real respect or listening to women, and their interest is in meeting their own needs. What happens to women as a result is meh. Not their problem.

I am emphatically not ok with that. That was the point I realised that entry to women's spaces must be limited to biological women only. As Datun has put it so well: anything else is merely negotiating the position of men's boot on women's neck.

Thank you both 🙂

ItsAllGoingToBeFine it probably has their number visible

The bit in the top left would be a phone number, ItsAll.

In the screen shot why is the name in the top left removed if it was from Debbie Hayton? i.e. why remove only one instance of the name. I don't have WhatsApp so I'm not sure what the message format is.

I can 100% confirm pinchpoint post about dh coming in and taking over and talking over women already in said groups.

It's dh's mo and does it in every single group they are in

I'm 100% with Barracker and those posters who have had doubts about this category of ally.

DH rocked up on a message board I was on to warn local women about self-ID, seemingly out of nowhere. It may have been a google alert, or a tip-off from another poster. DH explained, with fastidious politeness, that 'women' like DH had been using female-only facilities for years. DH just came in and took over, placing DH in the middle of the issue. We had been discussing the issue from a female perspective.

Even though nothing he said was unreasonable - DH was reporting DH's experience - all of my spider senses started tingling with a vengeance. I trust that response.

I then saw DH on Stella O'Malley's documentary, and felt incredibly sorry for DH's wife (her facial expression and distress when asked how her partner's transition had effected her was unforgettable), then later for the pupils DH gaslights every day.

I regard DH with acute scepticism, in terms of DH's value as a feminist ally. Clear boundaries are needed because their requirements and ours do not necessarily align. In fact, the more we rely on individuals such as DH to grant an appearance of moral legitimacy to GC feminism's aims, in the eyes of sexist establishment, the more we dilute our own aims - female-only space being paramount.

No. Just no.

And my own personal boundaries? I’d no more let DH close to them any more than I would any other member of DH’s sex, in fact I’d probably keep DH at even more of a distance because DH has already proved DH will cross them without a thought. There’s no benefit of the doubt if the doubt has already been proven.

DH thinks DH is nice and DH thinks women are fine with it

DH knows women aren’t fine with it as many women have brought it up with DH personally. DH doesn’t care.