Boundaries and Allies

You say “we” need to pull together but the trouble is that DH’s needs do not align with women’s needs. I’m not sure where the “we” is.

Agree.

^Where do Transman fit in this debate?

Whilst they are women. Some present unquestionably as men. Full beards etc.

Relevance to this thread?^

I suppose it's in reference to "passing" transmen in female spaces who, whilst they don't present the same threat as men/TW, would still provoke the same response. TM pass much better than TW (though still not brilliantly imo) and it would still be distressing to women to see them in there. They may challenge them, or just leave/feel upset/ self exclude. If a TM gets challenged and says "it's OK, I'm a TM" but looks convincingly male, we can't prove it's true. It's a common TRA "gotcha" to say that a predatory man could use a woman's space whilst claiming to be a TM. And in many cases that's true, until we get a third space option. I don't really have any answer for it, except to feel really sad that there are so many people out there trying to make it impossible for people to interact in a safe, honest, meaningful way.

But as I said, I respect your work, the film you made, the fact you’ve put yourself on the line by speaking out on this subject. Genuinely appreciated.

Oh, same here, Stella.

And I totally understand the desire to find middleground.

But, I know a transwoman who is perfectly lovely, is not any kind of criteria. It really isn't.

For a start, it's utterly unworkable. And secondly, you are only taking into account the man who identifies as a woman. What about all the women, who couldn't give a fuck what his motivation is???

My father-in-law is delightful, wouldn't hurt a fly. I wouldn't expect you or any other woman to disrobe in front of him or share an intimate space with him.

This really is not about individuals.

It is, however, about challenging individuals who claim that it is.

stellaomalley I very much respect your work and I get where you’re coming from here but it’s not just the joking about it that’s the problem, it’s the fact that DH has chosen on many occasions to use the women’s toilets despite women asking DH not to, despite them making their discomfort with that clear.

It’s the whole thing of being an ally but only so far. And the fact that it’s DH who gets to decide how far DH’s allyship should extend, and DH who decides how far to respect women’s wishes, or not. There is a cognitive dissonance here that is really quite brain jangling.

You say “we” need to pull together but the trouble is that DH’s needs do not align with women’s needs. I’m not sure where the “we” is.

But as I said, I respect your work, the film you made, the fact you’ve put yourself on the line by speaking out on this subject. Genuinely appreciated.

I just don't see the need to give TRAs ammunition.

What can we do about it? Stop talking?

It makes you wonder why they bother with Terfblocker when they spend so much time lurking here.

This!

BretonDinosaur r.e. username;
no its not book related. I was not aware that was a charactor in a book. Chio is a childhood friend and chan is an informal prefex, informal version of San.

Stella, please do a quick thread search here on Mumsnet and catch up.
Many of us have had several conversations with DH on this and it has been confirmed over and over that DH purposefully disregards the refusal of consent from women.
Also, DH never acknowledges that girls - children, use changing rooms and toilets, sometimes unaccompanied, and are unable and powerless to give consent to any man breaching their boundaries.

These comments from angry posters today are based upon over a year of documented conversations with DH. Women have explicitly refused their consent to sharing intimate space with DH many times. DH always disregards women's and girls consent.

This is NOT solely about a throwaway screenshotted comment.
This is about multiple threads here on Mumsnet, all preserved for you to read DHs stance on respecting women's boundaries.
I must remind everyone reading that DH is a good example of self-ID. DH is legally as well as physically male.

I won't link to the threads because many many women found them extraordinarily enlightening and valuable. I'm concerned that they will be mass reported if I draw public attention to them now.
Perhaps others will oblige with private messages.

Stellaomalley

You wish we could all pull together? Well of course, doesn't everyone?

The problem with this is that someone like Debbie believes they should have access to women's rights and spaces based on surgery (that's not a one off, flippant comment. It's a consistent viewpoint).

Others say it must be based on a GRC.

People like India Willoughby say it's based on looks, whether men 'pass'.

Tara Hudson says it must be based on yet different criteria - longevity, how long you have been trans.

The reality is, you have a whole bunch of men who are deciding on what women's boundaries are, and how they can access them.

How can you possibly square that away?
Women's boundaries are not an issue for men to decide. Arguing between them how a man can be more of a woman?

Women are people in their own right. A concept and an entity independent of men. With shared characteristics that places them in the same category.

Women are not non-men. Or weak men, or men without a penis, or frightened men or disabled men, or gay men.

The TRAs will find ammunition in an empty paper bag. No need to silence or chastise women just in case some men don’t like what they say.

Where do Transman fit in this debate?

Whilst they are women. Some present unquestionably as men. Full beards etc.

Relevance to this thread?

I just don't see the need to give TRAs ammunition.

Women don't need men who don't respect our boundaries. I cannot see why any woman would argue that.

@Doyoumind ... I became aware of the thread because posts were being tweeted at me. I suspect there are more now.

@ChickenonaMug I hear what you are saying but publicly I'm not going beyond what I said earlier: indicating an argument I find particularly troubling at the moment, and from my perspective

Any man ignoring women's boundaries IS that abusive male.

Yy, Datun, this is the heart of the matter for me.

I acknowledge that you have spoken out for women and taken a lot of flak for it, Debbie (just noticing the Rohypnol effect there btw). But doing some good things doesn’t change the fact that some of your behaviour is abusive. Like the aid workers who exploit vulnerable women in the areas they work in, the good they do by no means cancels out the harm they also do.

Any male person who is part of any attempt to break down or soften women’s boundaries is abusive, IMO, even if his intentions are not actually predatory. Emotional and psychological abuse are real things too, it’s not just about potential sexual abuse; and forcing women to accept ANY males in our single sex spaces is a form of abuse.

All of transgenderism is a form of abuse of women and girls. The whole thing. There is no acceptable level of breaching women’s boundaries, of eroding our right as the more vulnerable, disadvantaged sex to truly single sex spaces and services. The only way to be a true ally to women is to rethink the whole damn thing and start from the premise that no women’s rights or boundaries are yours to give away, not a single one of them.

Barracker has it. We need to protect our girls, whether they are our own DDs or someone else’s, from this encroachment onto their spaces. They need to be able to use public toilets, school toilets, that are only for females. The women teachers at your school, Debbie, are entitled not to have to use mixed sex toilets; all the children you teach are entitled not to be forced to lie about material reality.

What a sad state the world is in. What a heavy, heavy weight of misogyny hangs over it. Why is it still up to men to decide what we may or may not have, what we are or aren’t entitled to? Why are our voices still not worth listening to?

Comments from this thread are being pasted straight into Twitter.

To show how transphobic mumsnet is? Why is women protecting their own boundaries so controversial?

I think she said something flippant in a private group and has apologised for it. I think the movement needs Debbie. None of us is perfect, many of us have different views. I wish we could pull together

Anything else involves removing rights from women to give to male born people and calling it a 'compromise' that they're still allowed a few rights. For now. A bit. If they're quiet about it.

Every time I think about what compromise might look like, this is the conclusion I come back to as well. There is none. Not an inch. Not ever.

should all men with mental health issues be allowed into female only spaces because they feel vulnerable? Having a bad day, come on mate join the ladies?

That's the way, if we're being honest, that society has always divided itself. There are 2 groups of people in our world: Men, and people who men think are shit.

‘married to a woman DH is clearly not a homosexual transsexual’ yep ‘which means that DH appears to be AGP’ yep ‘Which means DH gets a sexual response from being perceived as a woman’ yep, yep and yep
‘The issue is that AGP males co-opt everyone around them into their fetish.’ what all of them? AGP is getting off on being seen as feminine, domination is a different fetish surely? I mean I dont dispute that some AGP get off on domination as well, as I'm sure other fetishists combe domination, but it does not necessarily correlate?

DebbieinBirmingham I do appreciate that it must be hard to come on here. However, unless you say specifically otherwise, I will assume that you do use women's facilities sometimes and that you do expect or at least don't discourage the school children in your classes from calling you Miss. As I have stated upthread, I have deep concerns about the impact that this is having on sexually abused girls, actually for many more reasons than I have stated here. You are welcome to search for my posts to find out my other concerns.

As I am sure that you understand, sexually abused girls are incredibly vulnerable. My post about imagining why single-sex toilets are important to a sexually abused girl was essentially based on my life, except I did not have to face going through it all without single-sex spaces. I cannot emphasise enough how important these spaces were to me when attempting to navigate through society, with what I think would be diagnosed as PTSD.

I am, of course very aware even twenty or so years ago that occasionally a male person, identifying themselves as a women would enter. In fact, it was one such occasion about five years ago in a changing room in the lingerie department of a store has led to me to trying explain the needs of abused girls to people. My reaction to the situation, even though I had come so far from where I was a few years prior, highlighted to me why girls' single-sex spaces, and indeed their emerging, fragile boundaries, need protecting. Children, especially girls who are trying to hide from the world their "shameful" secret, do not have the absolute ability to walk out of that changing room like I did.

Furthermore, all girls should be allowed to recognise someone's sex and react to and safeguard themselves accordingly. A sexually abused girl should never be made to feel as though recognising the facts about someone or something is wrong or bigoted and women also should have the spaces to recover and to negotiate through society.

I would appreciate your reflection on the DebbieinBirmingham.

Comments from this thread are being pasted straight into Twitter.