The Guardian

Its very badly written- not just the balance but the language too.

Yes, it is just. I get it on Saturday and it takes me all week to get through.

I’m like that with the Sudoko.

I stopped my Guardian subscription over this too. But I appreciate Hadley Freeman and Suzanne Moore. Can’t be easy being GC there.

There are a lot more GCers at the Guardian than you’d think. A lot of the noise comes from a small bunch mainly led by Owen Jones.

always I remember hearing the end of a book review on R4 about a book where the author argued our identity, sense of self, is made up moment to moment and anything deeper is an illusion. Could that have been one of the authors you mention?

If it was a recent interview it could have been Nick Chater, author of The Mind is Flat. I haven’t seen an interview with Dennett for a while. He has terminal cancer and is facing up to death without a belief in the afterlife with amazing courage.

The British trans rights campaigner and writer Paris Lees will be the new face of the hair care line Pantene, Proctor & Gamble announced on Tuesday. ho hum

The Guardian has been going sharply downhill for some time now, not just on this but on many other issues. I think part of it is their wish to become the 'centrist' rag of choice, and another is to appeal to the 'liberal' American market. Hence their consistent 'wokeness', and increasing avoidance of any real discussion in the comments by censorship - sorry 'pre-moderation' - or simply not opening 'controversial' articles for comment at all.

Unlike others, I dislike the self-absorbed American princess Hadley Freeman on anything other than gender critical issues. Marina Hyde used to be good but now she's basically a defender of the status quo with her increasingly unfunny articles.

I still read bits of the Guardian but I cacelled my financial support of them over this.
Love Hadley Freeman, Marina Hyde, Rhik Samadder, Lucy Mangan (right about books, wrong about telly) and Annalisa Barbieri. Can't stand to stupid TRA and "sex work" bollocks

Reality and the laws of reflection are definitely Dodophobic.

Oh, I'm definitely in the wrong body, Fekko. I'm startled and outraged whenever I look in a mirror.

How can you be born in the wrong body? How does that work exactly? Can someone please explain?

Yes, it is just. I get it on Saturday and it takes me all week to get through.

It seems to simultaneously suggest this was a Bad Thing (nasty government with its benefit cuts to disabled people) and a Good Thing (because she earned a lot of money and sometimes even enjoyed it)

Yes, The Guardian woke are getting themselves in a right pickle. It was inevitable, though! I think the issue of Islam and LGBT teaching is going to be another one that causes variant impulses to collide.

I am a lifelong Guardian reader, which means I am in a permanent state of rage.

Their report of the Dr Who story today was reasonably even-handed, but that's as good as it gets.

The have a weird piece by Frances Ryan about a disabled woman who was forced by benefit cuts into prostitution (sorry, "sex work"). It seems to simultaneously suggest this was a Bad Thing (nasty government with its benefit cuts to disabled people) and a Good Thing (because she earned a lot of money and sometimes even enjoyed it).

Try the FT just. Excellent unbiased journalism. I went over to it after abandoning the Guardian and never looked back

I might give that a go. It is an entirely separate publication to The Times?

I had one gender critical friend who I debated with over the GRA. I did my own research and transpeaked due to some American transwoman saying his pain was worse than a woman's because he couldn't have a baby (he could father a baby as he still had his penis).

Since then I have spoke to many friends and not really got anywhere with any of them, bar one or two. They just don't see it as important or they believe in let and let live, as I used to believe.

Unfortunately, I think things will have to get far worse before the majority of females stand up and be counted.

Someone mentioned Rachel Ivy above, so just googled. Hilarious that her gender is described as female on a good read!

I do think most rational people will get there eventually

They certainly will, but at the current speed it'll be far too late to actually do anything.

Op I was just like your friend under 2 years ago. What surprises me is how hard it is to remember what changed my mind. How I couldn't have seen the truth hidden in plain sight. One casualty is the Guardian subscription as I cannot fully trust them now. I do think most rational people will get there eventually (although some may decide that it's in their own best interests to carry on saying the lie). Your conversation may have started a thought process.

Neuroscientists tend to agree that the whole notion of an essential ‘self’, gendered or otherwise, is an illusion

always I remember hearing the end of a book review on R4 about a book where the author argued our identity, sense of self, is made up moment to moment and anything deeper is an illusion. Could that have been one of the authors you mention? I meant to find out more as the little scrap I heard I found intensely liberating. A bit like the feeling of insignificance I feel when thinking about space. I think I like these thoughts as it renders all humans equally insignificant and opens up the question "so how do we build our society?"

The Guardian has become the Wokedian IME. I never thought I'd say this but the DM often talks more sense on GC issues at least.

I stopped my Guardian subscription over this too. But I appreciate Hadley Freeman and Suzanne Moore. Can’t be easy being GC there.

This is what happens when you only read one news source. You will never get the full story. You need to read different newspapers, magazines, blogs, social media, and watch different news programmes. In her case, probably all you can do is be prepared with answers and examples, especially ones that are relevant to her life.

I was just like her until the GRA consultation. I had thought the "bathroom debate" was ridiculous. Then I saw the Stonewall umbrella, the TWAW mantra, realised there were transwomen who are fully intact bearded males, saw the aggression, all of it, and completely changed my views.

"Born in the wrong body" - yes, people with gender dysphoria feel that, but 80% of transwomen keep (and use) their male genitalia, so they can't find their bodies that wrong.

Another one for the FT - we do the crossword on the Guardian website and I even sent them money (for the Cambridge Analytica stuff). But their need to pander to the American anti-trump side of things (and Roz Keveney, apparently) really annoyed me. Just as their coverage (!) of the correctness of the Iraq war annoyed me and I switched to another paper then...

Maybe send your friend a link to a Rachel Ivey talk online OP? That's what peaked me. I probably had finished saying "but they're born in the wrong body" one minute and "ohhhhhhhh" the next, after watching. Forever grateful to my critical thinking friend for that. It's interesting how people can be swayed by supernatural notions over reality, I was and I'm an atheist.

Try the FT just. Excellent unbiased journalism. I went over to it after abandoning the Guardian and never looked back.

I noticed that articles now talk about trans women, not transwomen,

Really? So introducing another level of confusion.

What’s your paper of choice then OP?

I changed over to The Times, but that annoys the hell out of me too -apart from Janice and one or two others. It is fusty & conservative.
As with voting at elections, I can't find any news outlet that I can feel that good about.