Irish model in the GRA debate?

Just wanted to also say thanks for the links pachyderm. Both really good, sane posts.

3timeslucky, if you can spend time on Twitter without going mad, support for women like Cinnamon Girl really means a lot, I think. From an anonymous account if necessary. We really need to counter the narrative that all Irish women are just fine with all this.

@pachyderm - thanks for both those links.

Check out Jean Cross' blog - this post is a response to the "Terfs Out" letter from Irish libfems, and the rest of the blog is worth a read

stormforcefeminist.wordpress.com/2018/02/06/poisoned-letter/

Or this

storyboardoflife.wordpress.com/2018/02/22/an-open-letter-to-uk-feminists-we-need-to-talk/

Or check out Ireland Resisters on Twitter. There is some opposition to the madness.

Mermoose, thanks for that link (and writing it). I remember that "letter" that you mention. It was cringe-inducing (at best).

The thing I notice most here (I'm also Irish) is the impossibility of discussion. It sometimes seems like a cohort of Repeal activists suddenly found themselves with time and rage on their hands and turned it on the GC. These were "my people" and suddenly, they were not. I notice Cinnamon Girl on Twitter and she'll ask if anyone wants to talk/discuss/care ... and I'm thinking "yes, we're here - but we need to set up Twitter accounts that are non-identifying before we can speak".

Cheers NonnyMouse1337. Yeah, this whole thing has been an eye-opener - how misogynistic some men will be when they know they'll get away with it.
ElfrideSwancourt I have to admit I got that phrase from Helen Lewis! It is great though isn't it.

I've been trying to figure out why this has gotten such a hold here. I think it's partly because we're only just really breaking free of the church, and this superficially looks like a rejection of religion. Ironically it shares so much with the bad old days of the church here - TWAW is just the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation all over again, this time with glitter. What's eerie is that so many people who professed belief in that, weren't able to clearly state what it actually meant. And nor is anyone able to state what they mean by 'gender identity' or 'TWAW'. And if you question this, you receive the same tactics the church used: obfuscation (you're not clever enough to understand this complicated, sophisticated concept, so just accept it); ostracisation (you're a bad person, and it's dangerous for people to listen to you).

During the run up to the referendum on repealing the 8th Amendment (that was the constitutional block to any access to abortion, and the vote was to get rid of it), some pro-lifers had this pattern to their arguments. You'd mention examples of times when the 8th had endangered women's lives, and they would always say it was down to something else - medical mistakes, for example. Even now, pro-8th people will say that the 8th had nothing to do with Savita Halappanavar's death. And now, it doesn't matter what happens - Karen White, the Kristi Hanna case - it's never the fault of Self ID. The mad thing is that the people who now refuse to admit gender theory can hurt women abhorred pro-life people for doing the same thing. I honestly don't know how they can't see it.

Mermoose I love 'woke-washing'!!!

I'm Irish. I wrote this a while back for A Woman's Place UK: womansplaceuk.org/an-irish-woman-speaks/

Legally there are differences to what's being proposed in the UK, but I think Self-ID changes culture first and foremost, and that's what's happened here. It is impossible to question it openly. Because of this, a lot of people have no idea it ever happened and the rest don't know what's really being claimed by gender theorists. I've had conversations where someone has simultaneously stood up for the use of the word 'terf', AND accused me of being daft when I say that people claim biological sex doesn't exist.

I have a friend who's gay, he said transmen come on to him and he doesn't know how to react, he's afraid of being accused of transphobia. This is in The George, Ireland's most famous gay pub. The last time he had to be circumspect about his sexuality was about twenty years ago in Kerry.

No politician will discuss it properly, and practically no journalist will either. The party in government is Fine Gael. FG are fiscally conservative and have been in power while thousands of children have become homeless. Self ID is perfect woke-washing for them.

Afaik, there's also an important difference in Irish equality legislation. It lists gender as a protected characteristic, defined as male, female, or trans. 3 categories. It conflates sex and gender, yes, but also legally separates female sex from trans status.

There are no separate and conflicts citing characteristics for sex and gender reassignment, as in the UK.

I'm not a lawyer, but a legal friend informed me that the she believes Irish equality laws offer some protections because they effectively state TWANW, at least in the strict sense.

Inheritance! How could I miss it. You cannot identify your way into an inheritance.

Here's another thread, it has some good links on it www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3382826-A-callout-to-Irish-Feminists

Will try and look for a source but this is what I remember... sex still matters. Women cannot identify their way into the clergy. Men cannot identify their way into women's prisons.

The first is hypocrisy and the second is sensible. Here in the UK we seem to only go for the hypocrisy.

Sorry! Poor comprehension!!

There is very little criticism of it so far. All just backslapping for being so woke.

Unfortunately i think transmen have the legal right to self ID in ireland. Irish politicians moving too fast trying to be liberal not understanding that that puts born women in danger