Irish model in the GRA debate?

It got me questioning if the public in Ireland really were happy about all of this or not and what the differences were.

One of the most annoying things is the way it is trotted out that we/Ireland have self-ID and "look how well things are working". The vast majority (I'd hazard 99.9%) of the population have no idea that (a) we have this legislation (b) what the implications of the legislation are (c) that there is a cohort of GC opposition to the ideology that underpins it that is largely afraid to put our head above the parapet. Maddening!

Hi. I'm mainly a lurker here, but just to add my voice - I'm also an Irish mum, living in Ireland. I work for a government org and it's all very woke. I mutter with a few other women in work about the whole gender politics- they all think its madness - but we dare not express our feelings "aloud".
Irish media is all full of the gender nonsense, everyone is afraid to say a thing because there's only about 2 degrees of separation in Ireland - you could truly scupper your career or become a target for hate.

Ah he's broadly A Good Thing. I'm not part of the fawning but he does amplify women's voices on his platform. And there are so many cowardly men who won't get involved, I appreciate that he does, even if he sometimes seems to be wearing size 14 hobnail boots!

Now that's no way to ally and yes, I'm aware I used ally as a verb. I hate myself right now

He nicked it and didn't bother crediting the source, the cheeky fecker...I think it's what comedians do though!

Sorry Pachy! I definitely believe you

I should warm ye, David Quinn also writes for the Irish edition of the times. I think the British edition is better in general. I signed up online, so I could access both, though my subscriptiom ran out ages ago and I never got around to renewing.

I'm afraid I was thinking of the Prime Time documentary and a couple of things on the radio. The print media is pretty dire in general but The Times (Irish Edition) have had some ok coverage (mostly just reporting the bare facts, but sometimes that is enough.). They have also published some critical letters. There was also a decent article somewhere on Graham Linham.

People might be interested in this case.
www.mayonews.ie/news/33822-castlebar-transgender-drug-dealer-sentenced-to-community-service

2 things of interest. I the defendant had not themselves used their male name with the police, could they have gotten the case thrown out? (The police issed a warrant in the person's original name, and the defendent tried to get it thrown out on that grounds).

Also, they had 17 previous convictions, but still managed to get a Gender Recognition Certificate and new name (I don't know if all 17 convictions were before they got a GRC, but I think it is likely that at least some were). Great gatekeeping there by the Dept ofJustice 🙄

It was me that coined it and Glinner nicked it (true!)

Yes, I was so thrilled when I say the headline on that article by Fintan and crushed by the time I got to the end. Was it Glinner who coined the term Wokus Dei?

He did. I'm giving him a point for effort. But tbh I think his issue was with the notion that all women inherently have privilege by virtue of being "cis" rather than an issue with TRA ideology.

3times, even Fintan had a poor grasp of his material in that rather silly article

Yes I wonder where you have seen anything other than a trans love in in the Irish media. Like others I believe we have discarded one type of religious oppression for another - and the common thread is misogyny.

@CumannNamBan
There had been some decent media coverage
Please tell me where? I'm happy to change my reading habits just to see some decent coverage of this, or even a little bit of questioning or consideration? Apart from Fintan O'Toole pointing out the short-comings of the term cis-privilege I've seen nothing but woke-upon-woke mindless back-slapping self-congratulatory TRA ideological parroting (can you tell I've been an IT reader )

At the moment, it's very costly to be gender-critical, it's easy to be pro gender theory. I think this is why we're seeing unthinking enthusiasm for self ID from people who wouldn't usually stick their neck out for social issues. People like Regina Doherty get back-slaps for condemning Prime Time for even discussing this topic. Has she really thought about how her actions and comments will look in ten years time, or whenever it is that the bubble bursts? I find it very hard to believe that Fine Gael are supportive of the GRA out of the softness of their hearts. They saw what way the wind was blowing and this is something that they believed costed them nothing while giving them a thin veneer of humanity. We need to bring it home to politicians that this is something they have to weigh carefully. There are consequences for women's safety and children's well-being, so there should be political consequences too. This is why I think Irish GC women need to get writing to TDs, registered letters, pointing this out clearly and asking that the TD confirms their support for open debate on this topic. That's all I want - open and fair discussion.

Cumann I agree as well. My personal experience with wider friends and family is that the vast majority think trans people are old-school transexuals with full SRS etc. The second they find out it's not the case - which they are doing in increasing numbers as stories like Karen Bradley and Rachel McKinnon hit their awareness - they are all incredulous. With zero exceptions, they can't believe that men are being housed in women's prisons, being allowed to compete in women's sports, etc. just on their say so. None of them were aware that self ID with zero gatekeeping was in place in Ireland, even though it's been the case for ~4 years now.

I have a relative who is involved in respite care for kids in care, and she had been through training (from a UK agency) that was 100% Mermaids compliant. She had been told that trans children are completely certain of their gender identity from toddlerhood, that puberty blockers were completely safe and completely reversible, and all the usual. Within a few sentences, where I described the actual state f affairs, she was shocked that children were treated like such guinea pigs.

Most Irish people do not believe TWAW and are not plugged into woke Twitter so don't see the craziness.

I agree Cumann, Middle Ireland isn't having it. And there will be some kind of scandal or tipping point. Look at Scouting Ireland, mired in historic sex abuse, while the Irish Girl Guides merrily announces that they will admit boys. That will not play out well.

We have got to keep talking and raising awareness. It's dispiriting when some of our broadsheet journalists are real dimwits with no ability to think critically but they don't own all the space for discussion.

I don't think it is hopeless here at all. There has not been an organised resistance to gender ideology here, so the self-styled intellectual elite have had free reign to mouth off. A lot of people have no idea what is going on.

But I have noticed that outside of these circles people are generally not buying into it and can be openly critical. I noticed this in comments underneath newspaper articles and the like.

There had been some decent media coverage, though not much so a lot of people are in the dark. I think getting the word out is the main issue. And due to the fact that we already have self-id we are on the back-foot by comparison to the UK in legal terms.

Unrelated to the OP, but interesting nonetheless, Kitty Holland (Irish Times journalist) was ratioed ("Of a tweet on Twitter, having significantly more replies than retweets or likes, indicating popular dislike for the tweet in question.") on Twitter after trying to attack Jean Hatchet.
twitter.com/KittyHollandIT/status/1137698701357518848

Ireland is a lost cause and IMO there is no recourse in law to save women, because of the law here conflates sex and gender so much as to be meaningless. But more importantly the media, politics, government and civil society have been completely infiltrated and hijacked by the Woke.

Case in point: on the above mentioned Kitty thread there was a was a comment from the HSE (Irish NHS) Communications Manager DeniseRyan (on a personal account) quite explicitly saying that TWAW, and not a word to support Jean's work commemorating female victims of male violence.

PS I have been on MN previously under a different name, but needed a change. I'm an Irish mum, living in Ireland.

@Molesmokes there's definitely no requirement for any kind of medical transition. I don't know what's meant, legally, by the three categories of 'gender'. "The Gender Recognition Act allows all individuals over the age of 18 to self-declare their own gender identity" (that's from TENI, Transgender Equality Network Ireland). So someone who does that declares themselves as a woman or man (I don't think they've added NB yet), not as trans.

There are exceptions as to what this entitles someone to - prisons still house inmates according to sex, not legal gender - but I just don't know how this works in a lot of areas. I've asked for clarification from TDs and people in relevant organisations, but I never get a response, or if I do, it's just to tell me I'm a bigot for asking.

Just to go back to the original post - I think what Ireland shows is that it is just a terrible idea to put into law that people have to accept something which is untrue. The whole 'oh what a tangled web we weave' thing is spot on. You start off with something that seems on the face of it to be harmless and kind, and you end up in a situation where you are flamed for stating that biological sex exists. To have a workable law protecting the rights of trans people, we need to have a definition of gender. That way, we could be sure that it didn't supersede sex-based laws. Of course that's a problem. As far as I can see, there is no possible definition of gender that isn't based on sexist stereotypes, and trans rights groups always deny that they are reinforcing stereotypes.

@Mermoose am I right in thinking that Irish Self-ID means that there is no requirement for "bottom surgery"?

If so, this reassurance cannot be relied on to prevent an Irish #waxmyballs fiasco @Ereshkigal :

"However, the Act also allows people to be treated differently on the basis of their ‘gender’ in all of the following circumstances:

People can be treated differently in relation to cosmetic services that involve physical contact – for instance, hairdressing, body waxing, and so on;"

cited here: womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

The outcome of this court case suggests that the likes of #waxmyballs would have a field day taking advantage of the Irish GRA, ie. to force women to handle male genitalia

NOTE: the case below involves a transman, NOT a transwoman

Dublin barber fined €5,000 in transgender discrimination case
‘We don’t cut ladies’ hair. I’m sorry,’ barber told transgender man Lee McLoughlin (28)

Extracts (my bolding):

Upholding the claim, WRC adjudication officer Gerard McMahon ordered the respondent in the case, Paula Smith of Charlie’s Barbers, to pay out €5,000 to Mr McLoughlin.

Mr McMahon said: “I conclude that the complainant was treated differently, because he was transgender when he was refused a haircut by the respondent. This amounts to discrimination on the grounds of gender.”

When questioned at the WRC hearing as to what might have led the barber to take the stance that he did, Mr McLoughlin responded that he was “not sure” as he “was dressed as a male” and “was trying my best to appear male”.

Mr McLoughlin said the refusal by the barber necessitated an emergency counselling session.

When asked about redress at hearing, Mr McLoughlin responded that the case “was not about money”.

He explained it was about the principle and the precedent on behalf of those who might find themselves in a similar scenario in the future.

Full story:

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-barber-fined-5-000-in-transgender-discrimination-case-1.3577517

(I bolded "emergency counselling session" because I am wondering about the apparent ease with which an "emergency counselling session" was arranged! aka FFS!!!)

Afaik, there's also an important difference in Irish equality legislation. It lists gender as a protected characteristic, defined as male, female, or trans. 3 categories. It conflates sex and gender, yes, but also legally separates female sex from trans status.

Really? Didn't know that! That puts quite a different light on it, doesn't it?

I'm on Twitter on an anonymous account and have been subject to a Terf-down. Irish GC feminists need to co-ordinate. It's lonely out there.

I love Cinnamon Girl. I don't know her personally but I know a couple of people who've been in touch with her, she keeps a low profile. She's an independent thinker and a voice of reason.

Woke Irish Twitter is really dreadful; full of stupidity and bullying. I like to think their views are not representative.