Ann Widdecombe on Marr - Gay conversion therapy is no different to changing sex

just sharing tangential info re Widdecombe
<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WeJs4dMLyjAJ:api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1996/jan/09/holloway-prison+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WeJs4dMLyjAJ:api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1996/jan/09/holloway-prison+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

Wasn’t he just bisexual?
(George Melly)
Not as I understand it. He went to boarding school, I think, as a child and said his early sexual experiences were with other boys, plus he was very arty so he just figured he was gay. Then he slept with a woman and realised he wasn't!
OK, he probably wasn't at 0 on the sexuality spectrum, lots of people are not 100% straight or gay but I'm pretty sure he was essentially hetero.
( my info is not from wiki btw)

This is such an interesting thread. I hope it remains civil in time, because it has raised so many issues for me to think about.

Can someone point me in the direction of reliable sources for the idea of sexuality as we know it being a modern-ish concept please? I’d like to read more from good sources if anyone has them.

hiroo really? You don't think the massive uptick in women suddenly 'realising' they're bi/pan/whatever, but overwhelmingly marrying men has ANYTHING to do with the vast amounts of objectified women we see?

I'm not denying that bisexual women exist. But there are many who are very much biSEXUAL but have no interest in being romantically involved with a woman.

Never thought I'd see the day when I agree with AW over literally the entire left wing.

HirooOnoda

People find all kinds of crazy things offensive, it's not something I am inclined to worry about.

When helping young kids who are having a hard time understanding sex stereotypes become comfortable with their own sex is seen as conversion therapy, I don't have a lot of confidence that blanket rules saying conversion therapy is wrong won't be used inappropriately in other therapy situations.
If you don't think young adolescents being exposed to pornography or other forms of adult sexuality can become confused about their own sexuality, or have other negative outcomes, then I think you are very naive or lacking in personal insight.

Hi @Goosefoot, 1934 wants you back

I guess you are just pushing the boundaries of what is possible but quite frankly some of what you say is outright offensive.

Your lazy attempt to bring 'porn' into this at the behest of a woefully under qualified 'school psychologist' is tedious at best. I would have more respect for you if you were to just come out and say it as opposed to dancing around the issue like you are.

Conversion therapy? Let's just hope the people dear to you don't ever have that option hey

Yes, I hate to use him as an example, he really is sort of gross intellectually speaking, but I think there can be something to that. People can be influenced by certain experiences. I tend to think of this more as a male thing, but I know I've been told by a school psychologist that the ubiquitous of young people watching porn has a lot of young women who aren't really lesbians rather confused about their sexuality too. So what if you have people trying to work through the effects of experiences in their youth that have left them with a confused sexuality generally?

When "conversion therapy" is so undefined it seems like it might be a mistake, even with sexuality, to put it into ethical guidelines or law. All the more so if people are wanting to extend it to gender, or fetishes, etc.

Goosefoot
I heard the noxious Milo Yiannopolis (sp?) reflect on similar questions wrt his own experiences, both as a young teen abused by a much older male priest* and coming into the gay male scene with a culture of older men taking younger men under their wing, so to speak.

He was saying that it is impossible to tease out all the 'nurture' influences like those - and hating his mother - from the 'nature' ones (ie, born oriented that way). He said he basically believed that the orientation was there first, with the experiences shaping some aspects, if that makes sense.

• incidentally, he was also saying that in the last few years he's really matured in his thinking on the abuse. He used to say it wasn't damaging, now he sees clearly just how young 13/14/15 year olds are and the abusive power imbalance.

Western sexual norm [...] established during the modern era" and that although once upon a time

From a historical perspective this is largely true though, the idea of sexual orientation, that there is a type of person who is homosexual or heterosexual in the way we think of it, is a fairly modern western idea.

I am not claiming Ann Widdecombe is anything other than a hard line right wing religious fundamentalism, but she has written about the "madness" of thinking people can change sex www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/ann-widdecombe/970254/transgender-equal-rights-feminism-ann-widecombe-visa-crash-kim-woodburn

I think she was attempting to be sarcastic in the interview but didn't put it over very well. ie If you woke media types are claiming it possible for people to change sex why isn't it possible that at sometime in the future if someone wasn't happy having same sex attraction they too could (sexually) transition with the help of science.

I think it is really interesting that all the commentators are only quoting the bit about changing sexuality and not in any way referencing her remarks about the biological impossibility of changing sex. And think this is part of a pattern in the media to just silence the idea that anyone is questioning the trans dogma.

Here's a paper on the phenomenon.

You can tell its legit because it refers to sexual orientation as being a "Western sexual norm [...] established during the modern era" and that although once upon a time "Sexual identity was seen as something ingrained in the psychological and biological makeup of an individual" in actual fact it "emerged only in the course of colonialism."

If I remember correctly, sexual dimorphosm was also supposedly made up by white colonists. All the best science takes as its starting point the idea that everything we think we know is just a western colonial social construct.

The funny thing is that in the study, same sex attracted trans people were most likely to retain their sexual orientation (therefore becoming straight) whilst opposite sex attracted trans people were most likely to change their sexual orientation (therefore remaining straight). Come gather all ye homophobes and trans the gay away.

• according to trans logic

Well yes, the NHS website agrees with Widdecombe too. Kerazay.

The NHS website actually thinks it's possible to do both:

On life after surgery:

After surgery, most trans women and men are happy with their new sex and feel comfortable with their gender identity.

On sexual orientation:

Once transition has been completed, it's possible for a trans man or woman to experience a change of sexual orientation. For example, a trans woman who was attracted to women before surgery may be attracted to men after surgery.

Tbh the entire resource is a fucking mess. I'm trying to challenge it with them one page at a time but even that is like writing a thesis because it's so messed up.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

There is no religious pressure to change gender

bobbins

have you looked at the Iranian women's football team recently? gay men there are pressured to change gender so they become heterosexual in the eyes of people that think lipstick and long hair make a woman

Patronising lots. Just to be really clear.

The bare, simple point is here that it's not possible or good to change your sexual orientation. Neither is it possible to change your sex.

The motivation behind either of these misguided desires to change what you cant change doesn't have to be identical for this point to stand, but actually there is a reasonable amount of overlap among homophobic religious parents, for example, who would rather have a trans 'daughter' than a gay son.

Nah. We're not. We're well aware that she's not a leftie liberal all of a sudden, cheers.

Some people very obviously got the wrong end of the stick and thought this was an example of gay conversion therapy going hand-in-hand with people changing sex.

Nah. We're not. We're well aware that she's not a leftie liberal all of a sudden, cheers*

Patronising much

The point is that she made the connection between being able to 'change your sex' and being able to 'change your sexual orientation' and that if one is acceptable then how is the other not

I’m not pro trans but surely this is obvious. Most people who go through conversion therapy are pressured by the church to change themselves. There is no religious pressure to change gender. To equate the two is pretty low IQ.

Nah. We're not. We're well aware that she's not a leftie liberal all of a sudden, cheers.

The point is that she made the connection between being able to 'change your sex' and being able to 'change your sexual orientation' and that if one is acceptable then how is the other not?

I doubt that any of the regulars here would consider it possible or desirable to change either your sex or your sexual orientation.

I think you’re all giving Ann way too much credit here. She’s a homophobic catholic woman and was basically coming out as in favour of conversion therapy.

I'd be interested to know if Widdecombe is actually woke, having had an epiphany after Willoughby insisted that Willoughby's 'woman-ness' penetrated

Well she’s anti gay rights, anti abortion, a Tory so not really woke

Wasn’t he just bisexual?

Who was that gay jazz player, he was brought up to believe he was gay, it came as a shock to him as an adult when he realised that he wasn't..

George Melly

Meh, she has a point. If we can apparently change our sex, then why not our sexual preferences. We already trans away the gay so why not find a way to stop pedophiles being attracted to children.

Your comment has a flippant tone, but I think anyone who found a way to stop paedophiles being attracted to children would deserve a Nobel prize in medicine.

they have a huge amount in common - al though both sides would claim they are a million miles apart

According to Susie Green of Mermaids, 'cis' means "happy with gender and fancies opposite sex "
You'd think she would be ostracised by the trans lobby for saying stuff like that.