Beauty regime burdens

She would know because it was the dress I wore last year to our mutual friends wedding that we attended together. I basically only have this one dress that I wear to weddings and usually that's fine because most of my friends don't know each other. This is the first "overlap" wedding I've been to and believe me my friend will be pissed if the pics from her wedding and the pics from mutual friends wedding feature repeated outfits

Obviously you know your friend better than anyone on here but I find it very hard to believe that any bride would even notice, far less be annoyed, that the dress one of her guests was wearing had appeared in some other bride's wedding photos.

Does anyone subject other people's wedding photos to that level of scrutiny? I can't imagine any bride caring as long as guests weren't wildly inappropriately dressed or deliberately trying to upstage the bride.

I care about clothes, really, really care. I notice what people are wearing and compliment them , but whether a friend or colleague has worn something before at a formal event would not enter my head

As for wearing the same dress twice, I have dozens of dresses. For a special occasion I might buy a new one but at the moment I have 3 dresses which I love but which really can't be worn anywhere except somewhere special. They have and will be making plenty of appearances.

It gets trotted out a lot but I'm really not convinced the claim that women can't wear the same dress twice has much legs to it.

I would never be friends with people that shallow. Sorry.
Part of the reason I've decided to stop dying my hair, cut my hair short, wear less make up, is so that if I ever do attract a man it won't be a shallow, image obsessed, bore.
Or rather I see that as a positive side effect.

Gwenhwyfar

She would know because it was the dress I wore last year to our mutual friends wedding that we attended together. I basically only have this one dress that I wear to weddings and usually that's fine because most of my friends don't know each other. This is the first "overlap" wedding I've been to and believe me my friend will be pissed if the pics from her wedding and the pics from mutual friends wedding feature repeated outfits.

Now I've thought about it, I can definitely notice a pattern amongst my friends and women I know quite well, the more time and money they spend on appearance, the lower the confidence and self esteem underneath.
The ones who bother less are happier and more carefree
One of my best friends is beautiful and puts a lot of effort in to her appearance, on the surface she seems confident but there is always some crisis bubbling up and she's never secure in relationships even though she's usually way too good for the men she chooses. It's like she uses cosmetic enhancements a mask and as a way of getting validation.
A lot of people also place high value on beauty, otherwise none of us would bother with any of it.

I resent every one of the tedious beauty regimes I do. If I listed them here I swear it would run to more than twenty. I often think back to being a kid and just leaping out of bed, throwing on some clothes, cleaning my teeth and being done.

The older I get the longer it takes for me to get ready. I hate it.

It's better to reserve that for more anti-social behaviours. Something like gendered clothing styles, if its kept within bounds that don't restrict people in significant ways, is not worth the effort of trying to rub it out entirely.

But it has produced an antisocial effect, surely. We live in a world that is so rigid around gendered clothing and interests that it's more acceptable to say you've changed sex than to say you're a man who likes dresses. There's a poster up-thread saying he'd love to wear makeup but that he doesn't think he realistically can. How many men would have been happy to just identify as men if that wasn't the case? Why is it easier for Alex Drummond to "widen the bandwidth of being a woman" than for him to widen the bandwidth of being a man?

We spend all our time asking "why can't you just be a man who likes dresses?" If the answer is "because for most men the desire to present in a way that accentuates the fact they belong to the male sex class is too deeply innate for my desire to ever be seen as normal" then perhaps men who want to present as women actual are better off pretending they literally are women.

What I'm trying, clumsily, to ask is, do you think the desire to present and be read socially as belonging to your sex class, and distinct from the opposite sex class, through the use of whatever cultural gender markers exist at the time, is what TRAs mean when they talk about "gender identity"? And if so, do you think that maybe it actually is innate?

I'm very aware of this as a feminist issue and I'm doing less and less as I get older, partly because I give less of a shit what people, especially men, think of my appearance and partly to feel like a good feminist, reading here has really made me question some of the choices I was making.
I'm early 30s, been going grey since my teens and I've stopped dying it.
Hated the messy, time consuming, smelly job of doing it so I just don't anymore and my hair is grey enough that it actually looks OK if not quite striking.
I take perverse pleasure in watching people try to work out how old I am, baby face, tiny, still occasionally get asked for id buying wine.
I do shave my armpits legs and tidy the relevant bits but I've never been waxed.
Get my eyebrows threaded and bleach my mustache otherwise I'm a little Freida looking. Will be drawing them all back on and wearing a flower crown at a festival I'm. Going to.
I do wear make up but toned it down recently and resent the time it takes and have a customer facing job, people think I'm sick if I don't bother.
Heels, hardly ever and even then two inch max or wedges.
Keep my hair in a Bob as its quicker, easier, needs less product.
My nails get cut and that's it unless a very special occasion I will paint them a neutral colour myself, not allowed polish at work even if I wanted to.
I definitely notice younger girls wearing more make up than people my age did.
My youngest sister has a massive makeup collection, false lashes, fake nails,very long hair.
She's beautiful without it all but to be fair she sees it as a hobby, will often give me and other sisters makeovers to practice, try out new products and looks.
Part of the difference there is she has more money than we did growing up, partly because parents are better off with only one at home. I didnt get much pocket money so couldn't buy loads of make up even if Id wanted to.
maybe all kids just have more allowance now.
Expectations are definitely higher at a younger age and that does make me sad.

Dd told me that her friends told her that anal bleaching was to make sure it was nice and clean

Sorry...nothing to do with the thread

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say vaginal bleaching isn't very common. I know that's not the point, but if we're going for niche procedures, some men get muscle implants.

I didn't mean for this post to be 'what about the men' but I think hours and money spent is a better comparison than listing things only porn stars in LA bother doing.

I would say women have men beat in that regard obviously, but with the hours that some men and women put into the gym, you can see why sex is in some respects less relevant than values, class, laziness etc.

It was actually an article in The Sun that one of the women mentioned how a women did it for her boyfriend and it led to the besr sex they ever had, but being MN and The Sun, I thought better find a more credible link

"I've got a wedding coming up and I feel hugely resentful that I "have" to buy a new dress (no I don't have to, but I know the bride well enough that she'll be pissed if I don't)"

How would she know? She can't be familiar with every dress you own surely?
I don't know anyone in real life like this.

That's appalling 64632K. Glamour seem to be tying themselves up in knots objecting to this. Your body your choice, but don't do this. They can categorically condemn the racism in the practice but don't seem to notice the misogyny.

Heels - yes - long term use can have catastrophic impact on posture. Katy Bowman has written buckets on it. Several books on feet, walking and alignment.

I run a young adults womens group (18-24 year olds) and supported with a into womanhood late teens group, it came up as a topic, www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/vagina-bleaching-lightening

I haven't seen vaginal bleaching. Really? WTF?

I've cut myself shaving quite a few times. Put it in the harmful pile.

On another thread there was a post about something you ingest to make your nether regions taste better for partner during oral sex. Another level of making ourselves "better". Sometimes I am glad I am middle aged. Being a young female these days must be shit.

@Erythronium I take it you have not seen anal/vaginal bleaching then?

I think we should differentiate between things that are basically harmless (I'd say push-up bras and leg shaving, basic makeup) and things that are either very time consuming (nails done in a nail bar rather than at home) or painful (Brazilian wax, high heels).

High heels are the worst of all imo, not only are they painful, but they also curb women's freedom as a woman can't walk far in them and cost money (bus, taxis rather than walking).
Similarly, surgery is completely different to wearing control top tights or something.

And I don't quite agree that men aren't expected to groom these days. You only need to visit a gym to see the amount of effort some men put into their appearance.

Another one to add to the list:

Underarm whitening

New to me.

beautyshortcutips.com/best-underarms-whitening-creams/

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving

I don't really see it as being about any type of clothing in itself, or even being more or less decorative. I think - barring certain circumstances which I'll mention below - we'd be unlikely to see clothing become very neutral because overall I think men and women like being different. I don't think that is just learned, I think it has something to do with how we relate to each other as sexed beings. I don't think clothing has to be extremely different to fulfil that function, it could be slight differences, colours, that kind of thing.

Now, there are places and times where clothing is very similar for both sexes, often where the wealth or technology or environment means everyone is going to wear the same type of thing. So I think those conditions can trump the desire to accentuate sex differences. But often in those societies gender roles, I'd even say sex roles, have been much more separate, again often for environmental reasons related to women being tied down with babies. So maybe that has the same effect.

While I think culture can sometimes be shaped, I think its usually not worthwhile to try and extinguish deep behaviours totally, it takes too much effort to keep people from acting in that way. It's better to reserve that for more anti-social behaviours. Something like gendered clothing styles, if its kept within bounds that don't restrict people in significant ways, is not worth the effort of trying to rub it out entirely.

It's difficult for me as I now know in hindsight that I had dysmorphia about my face and skin from a young age.

At its worst I couldn't walk down a high st without pretending to try on clothes so I could privately check my face in the mirror.

Now I'm much better/ under control, it rose it's head recently again with a bad skin flare but settled. I find putting on makeup / camouflage make up therapeutic and calming.

I very much wish I didn't feel the need to. At the same time it's my guilty pleasure.

Legs are hairy at the mo and I went swimming like that. Sometimes shave my arms. Only moisturise as my skin is v dry.

Cut my own hair and stopped dying it. So it's definitely something to do with my perception and confidence around my face. And it's definitely blown out of proportion by my mind.

I was given a pot of Creme de la Mer as a present. It is basically Nivea in a fancy pot.

They have tested the two and Nivea did do better in terms of mild wrinkle smoothing.

I also think you will be unlikely to see men and women taking on the exact same styles, so you won't get rid of gendered clothing or grooming practices.

I don't think you'll see the exact same styles, but I don't see why there should be such a gulf between us. Once upon a time it was unheard of for women to wear trousers, now trousers are not a gendered item of clothing. Maybe the style is to a degree but not much - plenty of women in cargo shorts, plenty of men in skinny jeans. Most of the style differences just reflect our different body shapes. If it can become commonplace for women to take on male clothing norms, why can't it become commonplace for men to take on female clothing norms? Why is there no demand for dresses among men? Well, simply, there is a demand for dresses with men but - we see that with the flood of men taking part in drag, cross dressing, or identifying as "femme". But, unlike women wearing trousers (which was "punching up" in social terms) - men cannot admit to wanting to wear dresses (which is still seen as debasing themselves to the level of women). That's true for lots of things - girls can have "boy" names, but boys rarely have "girls" names.If the fashion industry put it's weight behind normalising dresses for men though, I think they'd wear them. You probably wouldn't see many men out in bodycon dresses or others dresses designed to highlight the female body shape, but loose tunic type dresses would probably catch on. Just like long hair used to just be a girl thing, but now it's pretty fashionable among men. The styling isn't identical - less layering, fewer fringes etc - but long hair is no longer a strong "gender signifyer". If it can happen for those things I don't see why it can't happen for everything.

Funnily, I read a reddit rant the other day by a transgender person, who was complaining about James Charles normalising makeup for men, because makeup should just be for women otherwise how would anyone know that they were a "woman" when they wore it. Shockingly enough the comments were not positive and they flounced pretty quickly.

I remember reading Mizz Magazine when I was about 11 and seeing advice on using Vaseline to highlight your cheek bones!

I remember the backlash against photoshopped models on magazines, and being told by my mum not to feel insecure because nobody really looked like that. For a while lots of celebs and models seemed to be rejecting makeup and refusing to be photoshopped to send a healthier message. Companies like Dove started running campaigns promoting natural bodies in different shapes and sizes, and shows like "10 years younger" started promoting natural beauty options over surgery.

It seems like it all changed quite rapidly. I think "filters" have a lot to answer for. So many of the women I have on fb look nothing like their pictures in real life. For some of them the difference is so profound that it's actually jarring, I don't always recognise that it's them in pictures until I see the name. I imagine people feel a lot of pressure to try and look IRL like they do post-filter. Hence the whole "baking"/ "insta-face" make up trend which did quite literally come from drag queens.

Mind you, even 10 years ago I had friends who would check every photo of themselves before allowing it to be posted online, or insist group photos be retaken a dozen times until they were happy with the way they looked. I have never seen a man do that.

There is a decent argument for the use of moisturiser, but no rational reason to spend £70 + on it.

I was given a pot of Creme de la Mer as a present. It is basically Nivea in a fancy pot.