A pleasant surprise

That's a big assumption that they pass.

Transwomen don't really pass in real life so they wouldn't get a genuine female response.

We know this stuff.

And we know we can’t change sex.

How is that so hard to understand. ☹️

What what now a trans woman can give us the the low down on how life treats us a woman

Erm I already know. And I know how life treats men.

Jeez. Ffs

LOL? Why LOL?

You see you are a woman, you say. You have beenfat and you have been skinny. Measurable, real.

Transwomen are men. They cannot change that. They can be all sorts of men... fit, fat, thin, trans tec. But they cannot change sex. You said yourself female presenting as in they dress up and even have comsetic surgery...

There is no similarity.

If you want me to believe you tell me how a human changes sex...

I have never, personally, met a transwoman who ‘passes’ , so perhaps they are not seeing life as both male and female as they think. It is, of course, polite to pretend that they do and that’s where the confusion arises, I think.

LOL NO.
Trans people are just quite uniquely placed to observe how one is treated navigating the world as male-presenting vs as (passing) female-presenting. They have personal experience of both to compare and contrast and recount and be heard.

Similarly, I have been both an overweight woman and an underweight woman in my past years, and the difference in how I was treated by people was staggering in a way I could never understand the same way had I been consistently fat all my life or consistently thin all my life (spoiler alert, you get a much easier time of things when you’re skinny).

Cor

Doesn’t the TWAW argument come across as bonkers?

Anyone who spouts it should really read the bottom half of this thread and then have a jolly good think

zoecb, if you really are a woman, you really should grow up a bit, and stop centring males, prioritising men, and pandering to men.

Women still have a fight going on - our rights are being assaulted from all directions at the moment - and yet you're here arguing for pandering to males? That's exactly what feminists should NOT be doing.

No, the definitions of gender dysphoria and being trans in the mental health definitions world has had some updates recently. No what?

Are you telling us about the DSM? the WHO re-classification of gender incongruence? Oh, you do need to catch up! That is a whole new bucket of worms... for trans people mainly!

No dear, you have been more impacted or more easily manipulated, by female socialisation which involves centring the needs of men over those of women. That’s your problem.

Yes. Most of us have been there. A few years more experience in the world outside of the university bubble will move your thinking on a bit. As will that moment when the reality of female biology hits you like a juggernaut and you realise that your body isn’t actually an empowering thing that makes men like you, but the source of all sorts of social and physical shit that disadvantages us over males.

"If your feminism prioritises males, it is bullshit" was something I rather liked on twitter.

Being socialised male actually gives transwomen a very unique and useful insight into feminist issues, they have very illuminating perspectives that are particularly good for making men understand women’s experiences. A valuable asset!

In other words, men like mansplaining to women what issues women should be concerned about and how to ‘do’ feminism correctly. No change there.

No, the definitions of gender dysphoria and being trans in the mental health definitions world has had some updates recently.

And that last reply... yes I think you’ve hit peak succinctness there.

Do you think transwomen might have picked up any negative aspects of being socialised male from birth?

Is it the taking of hormones that removes any lingering toxic masculinity or something else?

What would you say to someone who is triggered by the inclusion of a trans woman with a penis in a traditionally female space?

How can you tell the difference between a newly 'out' transwoman making their way in the world, and a predator who is using a trans identity? At what point should transwomen start using female spaces in their transition?

It's not an impasse. One is based in reality and the other not so much.

All transwomen are men and you can't change that fact ever. If they weren't men they couldn't be transwomen. Unless of course you think women can be transwomen too?

We get that intersectional feminism is trans inclusive it's just that most people, including rad fems, think that intersectional feminism is bullshit. Or at least this current, bastardised version of it.

But I just hope that you question one day what it is inside you that’s behind the hatred and why. I don’t understand why - but you should probably look into why you do.

We could just as easily ask this question of you.

Your belittlement and disdain for the female sex is palpable. The refusal to acknowledge females as a class of people in their own right, separate from males with their own distinct needs and rights is both misogynistic and hateful.

Being socialised male actually gives transwomen a very unique and useful insight into feminist issues, they have very illuminating perspectives that are particularly good for making men understand women’s experiences. A valuable asset!

Bollocks to that.

No zoe, they are not.

There is an argument that transwomen and transmen have a cause to fight against oppression or discrimination due to their trans status. I support that. But I do not support the strange notion that transwomen are actually or literally women - they are not. Factually, not.

Transwomen are protected by law, under the protected characteristic of gender reassingment - but women also have their own protections, we have exemptions under the Equality Act to protect women-only spaces and occupations - and to exclude transwomen (even with grc) from women-only services, occupations, sports and so on.

Intersectional feminism is only trans-inclusive to the point that it would include women who identify as men - as they will face/have faced/do face oppression due to being born female. And, for example, transmen may require female-specific services such as cervical screening, or abortions - transwomen do not.

Oh, how sweet of you! An open invitation to bite back and bite hard.

Sorry dear, many far better than you have been here and tried that. Amusing though it is it does get tiresome quickly, it palls!

Valuable Assett = invitation to get yourself banned. Twattish but so very, very silly.

I’ll say it again... acknowledging observable material reality is not ‘hate’. Insisting men can be women in their minds, is misogynistic and really really stupid. It’s like saying the earth is flat.

Maybe I have higher levels of empathy than average, I don’t know

No dear, you have been more impacted or more easily manipulated, by female socialisation which involves centring the needs of men over those of women. That’s your problem.

I think it has been changed recently actually, but I don’t remember the details WHat has changed, Intersectional Feminism? Well, some have tried to change it, to include transwomen. But I suspect you'll find that, given there's no joining fee and no rules, many women are rejecting that, just as they reject all other TRA activism that seeks to dismantle women's rights.

Being socialised male actually gives transwomen a very unique and useful insight into feminist issues, they have very illuminating perspectives that are particularly good for making men understand women’s experiences. A valuable asset!

Trans rights ARE women’s rights. They’re human rights too.

I know “trans women are women” vs “wahhh no they’re not” is the impasse this always reaches making such interactions as this utterly pointless.

I suppose I just came to register my shock and also point out where the law and law enforcement stands on transphobia and other hate crimes.

But I just hope that you question one day what it is inside you that’s behind the hatred and why. I don’t understand why - but you should probably look into why you do.

Intersectional feminism is trans-inclusive. I’m sure it’s awfully convenient to exclude groups to make your arguments work for you but academically it’s cheating and it’s lazy. Politically it’s regressive. It’s on the way out.

Transactivism is toxic masculinity. With added gaslighting.

Feminism is the political movement to fight the oppression of those born female. It's in the name.

Transwomen are born, and socialised, male. No matter what feelings they have in their head. They are widening the bandwidth of what it means to be male - which is good thing - but they are not female. Or include in women's fight for liberation against oppression.