A pleasant surprise

Might I remind you that it's gender critical feminists who are trying to abolish gender stereotypes and roles? It is not logical or consistent for us to to be confused by people who have an androgynous style.

Well yes, of course. Its an odd line of argument really, when GC feminists tend to reject gender completely and see it as nowt but a set of stereotypes the world shoves onto us.

Logically, it should be 'the other side' who are confused about people not following stereptypes, given they (not zoe as she seems to see trans as transsexual..so people with dysphoria which is obviously different) think that if you don't fit the stereotypes, you actually ARE the opposite sex So they class androgynous people as 'non-binary' even though..well everyome is non-binary/ Its all nonsense. Would be much easier if it all went back to usual, where trans actually meant transsexual. Would make it easier for me anyway.

Yeah, denying transmen the reality of their existence and trying to force them to be women is super-supportive, they’re really grateful for the inclusion

Nobody is denying their existence. Of course they exist.

And nobody is forcing them to be women either because biologically, they are women. There is no force about it.

I do notice that you choose to ignore the fact that a lot of so-called inclusive feminists activiely exclude transmen. Then again that's what you do best, isn't it?

"Queer community has their backs" - right - they'll have them on T with their breast surgically removed before you can say "80% desistance rate."

Good on the queer community.

The reality of transmen's existence is that they were born female, along with all that entails.

The reality of teen girl's existence in this pornified society, in this society where young girls and teenagers are routinely sexualised and harassed, is that they don't want to be a woman, they'd rather be a man. That's why GIDS referrals have gone up 4000% or something.

However, most of them, left alone, will desist.

How is Cloud Cuckoo Land today Zoe It's absolute stair rods here, glad I got back from my walk!

I may have to make a cake... cheer myself up

I dread to think how you treat people who have an androgynous look/style for no particular reason :-D. Must be very confusing for you!

Might I remind you that it's gender critical feminists who are trying to abolish gender stereotypes and roles? It is not logical or consistent for us to to be confused by people who have an androgynous style.

If anything it should be the intersectional feminists such as yourself who would be confused by it seeing as you seem keen to enforce gender roles on people and put them into boxes. You were after all the one who mentioned having a 'female mind' earlier...

Yeah, denying transmen the reality of their existence and trying to force them to be women is super-supportive, they’re really grateful for the inclusion sarcasm.

Thankfully the queer community has their backs.

Should clarify, u-turn on how I viewed transactivsts/transactivism as it stands today. I decided then and there that the ones spouting that nonsense are nothing more than MRAs with an inventive disguise. Not a u-turn on feeling sympathy for those with dysphoria..I still have that

Unfortunately, thinking dysphoria is a requirement to be trans makes you as much as a 'TERF' as people who outright state that people cannot change sex. Thats actualy where I started off on this road, being threatened and such because I said online that I had sympathy for trans people as having dysphoria must be horrible to live with (any kind of dysphoria tbh). I was attacked for hours by transactivists as I was a bio essentialist or something for saying that trans people felt 'in the wrong body' and that and informed that may transwomen do not have dysphoria and would never want rid of their penis and that the penis was a female organ as much as a male one. Quick u-turn..really

The only one making up things here is you. Or rather trying to squish a cube into a round hole. No women’s issue affects 100% of women, it’s not some bar we have to reach or a series of boxes we have to check. Women’s issues are issues that affect only women, not all women all at the same time. Biology drives us, not feelings and or life stages when we might encounter non-optimal functioning of our reproductive organs. Just because you can point to a prepubescent girl or post-menopausal or infertile woman and say ‘well they can’t have babies either - so why are they women and this person with a penis can’t be?’ Grow up.

Why do you think that transwomen‘s rights and other women’s rights are in opposition? Do you see transwomen rallying against safe and legal abortions? Maternity leave? Equal pay? We’re all on the same side here wanting appropriate healthcare for our needs even if one woman’s need is help to successfully get through a pregnancy to term, while another’s need is to be able to terminate one safely, for example. If you’re pro-IVF-funding, are you anti-abortion? It’s about freedom and the right to make decisions for yourself, that’s what we all want.

Intersectional feminism is trans-inclusive

Not strictly true, I'm afraid.

They may be inclusive of transwomen but they certainly aren't inclusive of transmen.

Gender critical feminists on the other hand may exclude transwomen but they include transmen.

Only one of those groups are vilified however and labelled transphobic. Funny that.

Funny! I thought OurZoe was informed.

I took the dog for a walk and come back to Our Zoe wondering what Lesbians on Chairs is; recapping the done to death shite with the glib accusation "you're making a lot of that up" when the 'stuff' is well known, lonhgstanding bollocks, much of which made manstream newspaper headlines and even a telly programme or three.

Zoe No, we aren't maing stuff up. Had you taken advice and done some more reading you would realise that you are talking with people who know a lot more about recent TRA actions, longstanding TRA actions and GCFeminist rebuttals than you do.

You would know that the women you are trying to educate are often highly educated, working in some high level science positions and have put themselved on the line for their GC Feminist beliefs, out there in the real world. Some have even had their jobs threatened. For being women who don't believe humans can change sex.

Now, be a good girl and be nice about that!

Well transmen can menstruate so obviously no?

They’re female, therefore not men. Only girls and women, females if you prefer, menstruate.

I know you're just here to be a bit goady, zoe - but can you really not see that women and transwomen are different and have different needs?

Each is entitled to the right to live free from oppression and discrimination, but the latter's right to "self-identify" doesn't trump the former's right to be legally recognised as the biological sex category "woman: adult human female" - the sex with the reproductive system that menstruates, can become pregnant and give birth.

That biological reality is at the very root of women's oppression by men. And it is not shared by transwomen - so NO, feminism does not include transwomen. Women's rights are NOT for transwomen.

Well transmen can menstruate so obviously no?

Yes all women need human rights!

I'm infertile. Am I now a man to you @Zoecb?

I think you're stretching yourself in circles to fit your basic premise of "be nice" - yet you don't care about "being nice" to actual women who need sex-based-human-rights.

ONLY women menstruate. Men do not.

ONLY women have the uterus to have UIDs. Men do not.

I agree with lots of irrational people on twitter though, lots of people on twitter keep telling me men can be women through the power of their thoughts. Madness eh?

And not all women menstruate

But only women menstruate.

Isn't this transphobic? It's my understanding that suggesting gender dysphoria and any medical transition are requirements for being trans is now offensive.

Yes, that line of thinking is indeed transphobic by todays transactivist standards. Which is part of the problem. It was 'easier' to deal with then it was about transsexuals, and not some huge umbrella that encompasses near anyone who wants to claim the label and declares that just saying a couple of words with no changes entitles you to female spaces.

And Twitter isn’t exactly full of balanced and sensible or centrist views on any topic whatsoever is it really. I have a Twitter but never use it tbh, I just see screencaps of comedy moments on other platforms.

You’re making up a lot of things but ok, you do you. And not all women menstruate, only a certain fertile age group with typically functioning reproductive systems not on certain forms of contraception. Some people with UIDs or implants find they don’t at all, nor do people who take the pill continuously, nor do very underweight anorexics, etc. Etc. See? Pedantry is useful when it suits you and ‘word salad’ when it doesn’t, clearly!

Good to see you acknowledge that "be nice" is the only driver here.

Actually lots of people have a problem talking about those things. I work in a menstrually related field and you would not believe the hostility and unpleasantness I get. And that is just twitter. And just the overt hostility, not including all those who find what I do distasteful or unpleasant.

And all of those things you mentioned come with attached societal and cultural ideas that are absorbed from childhood. They are pivotal to understanding women's cultural role, because these roles are shaped by men who don't have these biological processes. These processes are the mark of sexual difference that class women as inferior, weak, incompetent, overemotional - as well as nurturers, carers and placaters.

The fact is that society has put in place a number of measures to offset discrimination and disadvantages suffered by people who have the potential to become pregnant, largely visited on them because of that potential

Now a bunch of people who do not have that potential and have never experienced that disadvantage and discrimination are demanding access to those measures, diverting scarce resources to themselves

Doesn’t really seem fair to me