A pleasant surprise

Well if no one has the imagination and/or motivation to put themselves in another’s shoes and empathise with someone else’s experience then why bother pretending to respect anybody, quite frankly.
Just keep bashing the groups that society has not yet en masse come to support the rights of while still complaining that they’re still doing it to you.

Don't get too clever there, Fekko!

Kafka

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man

In the whole of human history, this has never happened. You might as well say 'if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a horse', or 'if you woke up tomorrow on Mars'. It's fantasy. Fine if you're writing a novel, but not really the point of this discussion.

If I woke up in a man's body tomorrow (obvs impossible) but if I did, I sure as fuck wouldn't be going into the women's loos.

It made Chat last week (ish) didn't it?

What would you do if you woke up as a man?

Most common answer was "Have a wank, see what all the fuss is about"

Ah, haven't had a proper bunfight to hash out the issues clearly with an AWA for ages. It is good to air it all out once in a while, rehearse all the AWA cliches and show the lurkers how easily these lies and misdirections are countered.

I am slightly disappointed that the 'if you woke up in a man's body you would be a woman trapped in a man's body' thing has come up twice. A bit lazy to repeat the high concept movie plot trick twice in a single thread. (FwIW, this one is so easy - it's a fantasy situation that never happens, but if you did have a mind swap into a male body, you would now be a male for the purposes of single sex provision, so you would have to get used to it...)

FWIW I don't think people can be born in the wrong body either. You are born in your body. How can a body be wrong?

People can of course believe they were born in the wrong body and this of course can cause extreme distress. However just because you believe something doesn't make it so.

A trans poster explained once that the whole born in the wrong body thing was originally coined so they could describe to other people what it felt like. So they could put how they were feeling into words but it was never meant to be taken literally.

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man

What an utterly stupid waste of our time this is when you write such complete nonsense.

NOBODY is born in the wrong body. It isn’t a thing. There is no scientific basis for it. It’s lunacy to think it can happen.

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man but all your same thoughts and memories and identity and personality you’d be fine to just swap and become a man and your mind wouldn’t be bothered than you could no longer be referred to as a woman or a mother or any other terms that are gendered but that you identify deeply with?

I might be a bit confused to begin with given that I have spent 28 years as a woman but after that I think I would adapt pretty well.

transphobes can stop hating them any moment they like.

Agreed. Luckily nobody on here hates trans people.

So you really think if you woke up tomorrow with the body of a man but all your same thoughts and memories and identity and personality you’d be fine to just swap and become a man and your mind wouldn’t be bothered than you could no longer be referred to as a woman or a mother or any other terms that are gendered but that you identify deeply with? That's what I mean by mind. It’s hard for the brain to describe itself, it’s all a bit meta and hard to pin down with language. I’m just pretty sure you all know who and what you are and wouldn’t be able to be talked out of it.

Some labels are for a chosen behaviour not an identity - you can’t really choose those in the same way. One doesn’t choose to be gay or straight or bisexual but one can choose to be promiscuous or to be monogamous or to be celibate. You can’t choose to be white or not (well unless you’re Michael Jackson!) but you can choose whether or not to be a racist. You can choose whether or not to be a transphobe or act as a piece of lawn. If you don’t want to be called one it’s easy to stop being one. Transpeople can’t just suddenly not be trans but transphobes can stop hating them any moment they like.

*meant

OldCrone I assume that she might masculine and feminine rather than man and woman?

Even then it still doesn't make sense because nobody is 100% masculine or feminine.

Going by Stonewall's own definition of non-binary, I am non-binary .

An asset which so far socialised males turned transwomen seem to be doing bugger all with. I await examples of where this has happened and had made a difference to the lives of adult human females

Miranda Yardley?

Hmm, I wonder what Zoeb makes of transwomen like Miranda Yardley? The ones who acknowledge they are male and are okay with that? Would she tell them they're wrong and she knows better than them?

I have non-binary friends who don’t feel fully accurately described by the terms man OR woman.

Man = adult male human; Woman = adult female human. Every adult human is one or the other, so is accurately described by one of those terms. 'Man' and 'woman' don't say anything about anyone's personality.

Also a lot of those 'symptoms' seem perfectly normal to me.

Who doesn't feel distressed by puberty? I'm not sure if it's different for boys but I know it was perfectly normal for girls to feel distressed and upset by puberty and the thought of having to go through it.

I am still waiting to hear about Zoe’s female mind

Come on, I’m agog

Zoeb Being socialised male actually gives transwomen a very unique and useful insight into feminist issues, they have very illuminating perspectives that are particularly good for making men understand women’s experiences. A valuable asset!

An asset which so far socialised males turned transwomen seem to be doing bugger all with. I await examples of where this has happened and had made a difference to the lives of adult human females (Along with your definition of a woman).

Unless by that you mean they can tell us how to be women "properly "? ...

Why am I getting pictures of women in tiny denim shorts on the RHS of my screen??

Me too! I even went by the male version of my name for a few years, now use a version that is unisex

Using Stonewall's definition I am definitely trans!!!

That's what words and boxes and gender ideology does to you.

Oh and I had pretty much every single 'symptom' on that list when I was a child. I also wouldn't care if I woke up tomorrow in a man's body. In fact I can think of several advantages it would bring me. I'm still not trans though.

So if you don't think gender roles should be imposed on anyone then what exactly did you mean when you said you had a female mind? How can you explain that without resorting to stereotypes?

And what do you think about the NHS gender dysphoria symptom page which explicitly states that wanting to wear clothes of the opposite sex and play with toys associated with the opposite sex are signs that a child is trans? If that is not enforcing gender roles and attempting to put people into boxes then what is it?

people adopt linguistically-created labels they feel describe them most accurately and reject those that misrepresent them Except women! You yourself chose to use teh teerm TERF, a term women rject. Cis is another. All TRAs and Woked Bods use that, all the time, They don't stop when asked...

And stop with the "ooh I am nice to my trans frends" flannel. You've already been told, many posters here have trans friends and family, some are trans, many (being GC Fems) are the very defintion of non biary, if you like the Stonewall defintion. You ain't unique in knowing any trans or non binary people!

See all the language does is illustrate how 2 sexed humans are

Non binary
Trans - from what to what?

Androgynous means lack of distinctly male or female aspect, being a combination of the two

With every TRA utterance they START at the position of there only being 2 sexes.

Gender “roles” are things like ‘get back in the kitchen’ or ‘go fix my car’. Shouldn’t be imposed on anyone. I don’t put other people into gender boxes, people adopt linguistically-created labels they feel describe them most accurately and reject those that misrepresent them. I have non-binary friends who don’t feel fully accurately described by the terms man OR woman. They just want to be them. I don’t find it hard to respect that.