The new Goths?

I think most parents assume it's innocent and harmless
that's the thing. As a parent, you don't know what to be wary of. You can block pornhub and similar filth, but you can't really ban your kids from being interested in art, literature or fandoms that are meant for children. Thank goodness mine aren't interested in anime or furries because that's one scary rabbit hole. But I won't be surprised if something sinister creeps up in Minecraft or Fortnite communities

I was an 80s-90s goth and punk, didn’t fit in at school, wasn’t skinny and pretty, so decided to be fabulous instead and go to the other extreme. Plus I loved the drama of dressing up, and experimenting with makeup and hair. I really did find “my tribe”.

There was also a pecking order and kind of orthodoxy about it: you were supposed to be vegetarian, and not smile, and hate disco and country - well I just scoffed at that, as a cheerful omnivore Boney M fan. But then I didn’t have social media jumping all over me if I stepped out of line, and my only body modification was getting my nose pierced.

It's not anti-establishment though, is it? The establishment (main political parties) seem to be all for it, leaving anyone GC with no political home.

And being taught we must be Goth because we felt we didn't identify with, say, Kylie Minogue, was not something we encountered in the classroom.

I think there are far more similarities with a cult than with youth culture.

Some old guy said its a "conspiracy to make everyone bisexual". I laughed at him back then, but now look like his senses were right.

There are a lot of things old square people said when I was younger, that I thought were crazy. And now they seem like they were prophetic.

FishCanFly really . That's so dark. I think most parents assume it's innocent and harmless - I was shocked to hear even the little I did.

I was a goth from the mid 90s to mid 00s.
Most of the guys wore make up and some wore women's clothes, but very few of them claimed to be trans. I can only think of one out my large circle of acquaintances at that time that had a female name.
However, it was very fashionable to be bisexual, for both men and women.
For the people I know, for 100% of them it was a trend that was over before they were 30, and they all totally heterosexual now and a little embarrassed about that phase of their lives.

I think trans fills the same space for young people as past youth movements so in that sense I agree.

What I find striking is that punks, goths, hippies, mods, emos etc. etc. were grass-roots youth movements. They were a form of rebellion against mainstream norms. Parents, teachers etc. didn't approve, they would roll their eyes, quietly take the piss and encourage the youngsters to at least smarten themselves up for job interviews and to 'turn that music DOWN!'

Compare this with the multi billion dollar worldwide trans industry with seemingly the whole of healthcare, education, whole governments, vast swathes of the third sector etc. cheering along.

This is not a youth movement in the true sense, it's a top-down pseudo youth movement. It's astroturf.

anothernotherone
There is plenty of really vile stuff regarding HP fandom, apparently it attracted paedophiles.

Have any of you read about the Harry Potter fan base link among the fan fiction writing mid to older teens - lots of self harm and trans talk apparently. Bizzare but real according to a friend who's teen DD is getting sucked in.

i think goths/emo were paving the way for this. Gender non-conformity in males was a strong theme, long before pronouns were a thing.

Some old guy said its a "conspiracy to make everyone bisexual". I laughed at him back then, but now look like his senses were right.

I was thinking this in relation to non-binary kids. A lot of them all seem to have similar clothes/style and haircuts/colours, that it does come across like a bit of a trend and subgroup of youth in the same way goths or emo kids were. The only difference is it somehow interlinking with their gender and needing new pronouns etc for being part of this subculture.

I think you are right. Each generation has the need to shock the last to demonstrate that they are not the same as their parents.

The thing is every possible shocking thing has now been done before by previous generations.

The escalating numbers of trans youth (and especially non-binary genders) are clearly a youth culture. You only have to look at the style of it and the types of young people who identify as such.

Declaring yourself as trans / non-binary is like the ultimate tattoo!

I tend to think of them as today's emo kids. Particularly because of the mental health as identity stuff, as well as a number of other characteristics and behaviours.

And seeing parents parading their under-12s to the news media, and over-sharing on social media, takes me back just a few years to when the number mystical and wise "Indigo children" were about the same as the number of parents today who have "trans kids" -kids in primary school or even kindergarten- who are inspirational "heroes" to their own parents, always teaching them something, and having "always known " they were "really a boy" or girl.

I do think it’s a tragedy that the gender critical are the new enemy because we “don’t understand”, when the truth is many of us are gender critical because we understand all too well.

👏👏👏

I agree completely - I am another one of those who was uncomfortable as a teen, not in the in crowd but found “my people” in the indie scene with baggy flares and over sized band t shirts covering a female body that just didn’t feel like mine. I also self harmed, self medicated with drugs and alcohol.

I do think it’s a tragedy that the gender critical are the new enemy because we “don’t understand”, when the truth is many of us are gender critical because we understand all too well.

The thread I posted elsewhere (the article on binding) had a comment suggesting a high crossover between anorexia and trans - no link given, so don't know the source for that claim. But it's not difficult to imagine that if you hate your body in one way, you might also hate it in another.

So not trans as the new anorexia but a significant number of the old anorexics also being trans.

It would be interesting to know the statistics about anorexia nowadays as well. That's a way of controlling your body, and being trans is the ultimate expression.

Interesting discussion. I was fairly gothy/crusty in the 1990s and aligned myself with "alternative" subcultures.

As a middle aged lawyer, ostensibly fairly conventional, I have reflected on what it was that made me grow dreadlocks, wear para boots, get multiple piercings etc. in my teens.

I do think it was a way to escape some of the pressure of adolescence. I was never one of the pretty girls, I felt uncomfortable in my skin, in fact I would go so far as to say I hated how I looked. I was never going to have all the boys fancy me. So I made myself "uglier' as a statement. It also gave me a sense of belonging to a group, something I had not felt before.

So I think there are some parallels there.

But I think the other parallel is between the self harming/eating disordered adolescents. I accept that getting numerous piercings as I did is a form of self harm, but not on the scale of starving oneself or binders or surgery.

All of the above may be true - but is, additionally, being manipulated by the ever growing numbers of middle aged heterosexual cross dressers transitioning full time; especially those with power and influence. So many different levels and strands to this 'thing'.

I actually saw a goth, yesterday, in town. The first time in a long, long time. Young woman/teenage girl.

I think “what’s your pronouns?” is the new “what’s your star sign?”

Love Joolz, she's amazing.

Interesting, & I think yes, a lot of these young people would have ended up punk/goth/emo in previous decades.

Certainly my experience is that older goths tend to see themselves in them. I'm a persistent goth who's still poncing around in black in my late 40s. Lots of my friends are also middle aged goths, punks etc.

I get absolutely howled down any time I post anything on SM that is remotely GC. Goths are a bit of an echo chamber when it comes to uncritically applauding the blue haired kids.

I think it's because we were quite protective of the emos, & at some level people see the brave & stunning teenagers as next generation - which they probably are. There's a tendency to see the combination of flamboyant/creative/misfit etc & identify with our own youth as misunderstood 'weirdoes'.

So yep, I think there's an extent to which this is the new goth. I'm not entirely a lone voice in speaking out, but I've had a lot of anger directed my way from fellow goths - whereas friends who don't have that background tend to reflect the same stance as most of the public - they'd like to be nice, they don't want to upset vulnerable people, but they don't want blokes in female spaces & they're very willing to say so.

Kudos to punk poet Joolz Denby - she's proudly GC & takes no prisoners on Twitter. But she's a bit of a rare bird in those circles.

Yes I can see the correlations and yes the goth gatherings in my town have gone.

It's a much darker trend though.

It's this generation's cry for help, for sure.

But now there are those who want to make sure the tears last a lifetime. We live in strange times.