Even when they get what they want....

C’mon folks, the doors are to protest us girlies, eh? All us wee girlies against any nasty old men.

Now let’s all get into our Baby Dolls, do makeovers in each other and have a pillow fight! 💐 💄 💅💇🏻‍♀️👯‍♀️💃🏻👯‍♀️👙👗👠🌈 🦄

Not which side has the nicest manners

Neither am I and I never said I was

Which never actually happens though

Can only comment with my personal experience since learning about the subject on MN.
So it does happen. Maybe not to everyone, but it obviously does to some.

Just to say that Layla Moran is a Liberal Democrat MP and previously a physics teacher. She is in no way a radical leftist. But I agree that her statement that she saw people only as their souls without reference to their bodies or the way they presented certainly is radical when considering why services previously segregated by sex plus convention should now be legally separated only by assertion.

Then you (general you) say you want to hear other opinions really

I've written, deleted and tried to rewrite a post about this ten times. Trying to rationalise, qualify, debate, explain.

Fuck it.

I feel constantly bashed over the head with this cosh of 'souls/transwomen are women, that's where you have to start the debate/biology has moved on, we don't know what a woman is/bigot/transphobe/pile-on/attacking'.

Thankfully, I'm resiliant. But I know lots of women don't have that resiliance, for lots of good reasons. I'm here for them.

This is the fucking Feminism and Womens Rights (FWR) forum on Mumsnet.

I did the work of researching this shit before I spoke out. Many, many other posters here have also done their research, listened to opinions, and know where they stand.

Those posters shouldn't have to spend their time apologising for fighting for women's rights.

Women's rights.

And most of us here know what that means.

I owe noone an apology or more of my time to explain why a person born with a penis is NOT a woman.

Once again @LimeKiwi you are missing the point. Are you going to answer any questions or points or are you simply here to point out the nasty ladies being meanies.?

There's a banging job of peaking going on the other way round though

Which never actually happens though.

Because people make decisions on what policy to support based on things like 'not disablist' and 'not homophobic' and 'not racist' and 'not anti freedom of thought' and 'not pro rape culture' and 'I really don't want women excluded from women's provision when they're raped/need a smear test/need refuge from a male partner trying to kill them/ want somewhere to change or pee or swim without males present'.

Not 'which side has the nicest manners'.

And frankly if you're picking your policy to follow based on who is nicest, do note you'll never find any FWR post that makes death threats, rape threats, threatens specific violence or mutilation or implies anyone is not worthy of basic human and civil rights. You'll find that in spades on twitter from TRA political lobbyists. Unless of course your demand for nice manners only applies to women?

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts

This. In spades.

I get the feeling that somewhere along the line we’ve encouraged debate (in schools? in the media?) to the point where opinions are considered to be concrete facts. And people genuinely cannot distinguish between the two.

For clarity - it's not me saying disingenuous buffoons. I was quoting. Before somebody decides to read it wrong.

See what I mean? Disingenuous buffoons when all the poster did was give a different opinion!
You say it peak trans. There's a banging job of peaking going on the other way round though.

@LimeKiwi for goodness sake women don't have to be kind, nice and generous to people who are supporting policy and social trends that are harming us.

If you are asked a question about your belief system and you can not answer it, then you need to go away and have a serious think about that belief system. It is not enough to whimper and flounce and play victim in order to avoid the development of debate - especially one as important as this.

The disingenuous buffoons are our peak trans secret weapon. The more they argue about souls and such nonsense the better.

It's a waste of intellectual and emotional labour, having pointless conversations with people who won't define their terms and use every logical fallacy in the book.

I agree to a point. However given the huge increase in traffic to the feminism boards it’s always worth pointing out the gaping holes in their arguments for new people.
I’m sure it won’t take long for intelligent people to see the ridiculousness once we point it out.

You're right, disagreeing isn't attacking - you general you straight away started "wipe your tears", rocks, idiot etc at the poster.
So to say it was just disagreeing - erm... right ok

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.

Judas I never tire of saying that!

Twaw? How - do please explain how this is correct and yet ‘dogs are cats’ is not?

Even though we had a single dog and a load of moggies - and the dog really did join the pack of cats - almost as if he thought he was a cat... trans cat you may even say.

I think it's really sad I've been attacked like this, and the pack mentality is extremely depressing.

Disagreement is not attacking, stop the drama and reproachful sniffing and get a grip for goodness sake. And a majority view disagreeing with you is also not a pack mentality.

I respect your right to hold your own religious beliefs. My own personal religious beliefs include ideology that souls are unsexed and in the course of different lifetimes inhabit male or female bodies, but I don't expect you to practice my beliefs regardless of your own, that would be exceptionally disrespectful and rude towards you. So I'd appreciate if you'd extend the same courtesy to others who share different belief systems.

There are limits to what people identifying as trans can demand others do to enable them, and you're illustrating well the OPs point. The total lack of capacity to consider never mind respect anyone else's feelings, beliefs, experiences or needs equally.

This thread is another example of how nothing less than women's (those not born with a penis obvs) complete capitulation is enough. If we disagree we're 'piling on' if we say to each other don't argue, (using the MN code of a rock) we're also in the wrong.

How can you tell a poster is not a woman? They're the people telling women how they are doing womaning wrong.

If limekiwi you think that the arguing is being done purely for trolling then yes. You ignore. You grey rock.

I find that an easier concept to understand than the concept of misgendered souls.

Gender-Moonies

Trans women are real women
Anyway, I'm perfectly entitled to my opinion
You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.

I love it when people explain how transwomen are women in terms of souls.

I love it when organisations like UCLA take transwomen are real women to its logical conclusion: no adaptations to women's bathrooms are necessary, just let the transwomen in.

It all shows it up for what it is. There's a lot more of it being made public now. Good.

The logical conclusions are not having enclosed cubicles, Karen White in a woman's prison, men winning women's races, etc. All these things seem bonkers to ordinary people. Now journalists aren't so easily silenced by the chanting of TWAW these things get reported. Also the woke get quizzed more seriously and either end up talking about souls or having weird violent hissy fits thus showing it up as a modern religion or themselves as nutters.

More sunlight. It works. Not to change trans-fundamentalists viewpoints, they'll still be gender-Moonies, but their attempts to build laws will get rolled back.

It's a waste of intellectual and emotional labour, having pointless conversations with people who won't define their terms and use every logical fallacy in the book.

Recommending other women do not similarly waste their time and attention is what I mean when I post an image of a grey rock.