People who are anti abortion from conception, how do you feel about IVF?

I had IVF, we had several spare "good quality" embryos left over and frozen.

We had to pay to keep them frozen. After we had 2 DCs of our own we decided not to pay anymore.

Our choices were; donate to another couple or donate for scientific research.

We debated this for months, I desperately wanted to help another couple but was terrified about how we would all feel if an 18 year old child came looking years later and had suffered a horrible childhood. I also hated that my kids might have siblings they didn't know.

After agonising we chose to donate to another needy couple. But strangely DH and I then had to undergo extra tests to allow them to be donated. It turned out that DH is a cystic fibrosis carrier (I think that's the correct condition). And so our lovely embryos were not allowed to be donated!!! So scientific research it was.

I found that very strange! Our 2 DC are completely healthy and no one checked before we were allowed to conceive!

Throughout all of this I genuinely never considered the pro-life view of IVF. To me the embryos were a bunch of useful cells with the potential to bring joy, but not with any rights of their own yet!

I'm now a little bit against IVF, only because I think that there are too many unwanted babies in this world. Of course I love my DCs completely and utterly but I think we should have considered adoption. (Easy for me to say now that I have my 2 DCs, I know).

If the discard rate is really so low, that would rather answer the question of why pro-life organisations pay more attention to abortion. It wouldn't however mean that it should not be a concern at all for such an organisation, as there would always be some cases where there were unused potentially viable embryos, at least the way it is done now.

I'm not seeing the issue with made to order humans, not least because the only other type is unplanned.
Most of my friends who conceived through sex made their dc to order too.
IVF can only produce the optimum conditions for a successful pregnancy, nothing more. It works through the same stages outside the female body as would be worked through inside. There are no magic wands, no super powers just the very best conditions possible.
I know some people who had left over frosties but they were not the norm in my circle, embryo creation has a high drop off rate at every stage as outlined by pp.

I wonder if there needs to be some understanding of the term "discarded". Were these all fully formed blastocysts that were suitable to be frozen and transferred at a later date? Or were many (as I suspect) failed embryos that would never have implanted and lead to a pregnancy.... whether conceive by ivf or naturally. There really is a massive difference.

For people understanding of the process I am currently 17 weeks pregnant having had (private) ivf.

I had 14 eggs collected, 12 were viable and 11 fertilised. Only 3 made it to blastocyst. Only one was transferred (as it was v high quality and it is not advisable to risk a multiple pregnancy for mother or child) and 2 are frozen. They will be used at a later date.

All along the process it was continually repeated that having something to freeze was far from common

So on my stats I wonder if all but the 3 would have been counted as discarded in some of the number quoted in the post (the 1.7m for example) In one sense they were but ONLY becauSe they stopped developing and would NEVER have resulted in a pregnancy.

No doubt we all check up on all the things that might entail some sort of practice we disapprove of. Otherwise we need to give up our scruples....

That is a whole other moral area of decision making.

There are many animal and human drug trials that have historically happened, particularly horrific ones done on the destitute.

We still generally use the knowledge gained from them.

Scientists use embryos to research cancer, congenital conditions, heart disease and many more. If it's so repugnant I presume if you're against this research you check before taking any drugs that they weren't developed using embryo research

Please provide actual facts if you catch up later.

So 1.7 million discarded, many more still frozen in storage, and many used for experimentation?

I'll catch up later, my "made to order" little humans have just arrived home from swimming.

@LassOfFyviei find your "morals" repugnant

You are entitled to. I find IVF and surrogacy morally repugnant. They are making humans to order.

We very much disagree but I'm interested to hear the points of view. Should we be naming the embryos and providing funerals when they fail? No. That is ridiculous.

If they're a life, should they have legal documentation? No

Is there a question of fault and blame if a miscarriage takes place and that life is lost?

I said nothing that remotely suggests that. As far as I am concerned IVF is making humans to order and not caring to address the implications of that.

There are many reasons why we treat some symptoms of health issues and not others. Ethics being one and lack of resources another.

Many health issues are caused by lack of resources in the first place.

I don't have links to hand sorry, my Ivf days are behind me.

If you take a look at the infertility board here and many of the other infertility forums you'll see that it's more unusual to be left with several freezable blasts than otherwise. Obviously that's just anecdotal evidence though. The hfea also provides cycle breakdowns by clinic which is interesting.

So, I found a Telegraph article which says that 1.7 million embryos have been discarded in relation to IFV. I don't know how to link on here but it was easy to find with Google.

It wasn’t written in that context. Can you provide a link to the HEFA info that says how many viable embryos there will usually be, because I can’t see info suggesting there normally won’t be any left over for freezing or destruction.

Yes several embryos may well be created but due to natural selection it's highly unlikely that several will be left by day 5.

Infertility is often linked to other health issues, a symptom if you like. Why should we treat some symptoms of a health issue and not others?

I’ve looked at the HEFA website and it says that often several embryos are created.

@LassOfFyvie i find your "morals" repugnant.

In most IVF cycles IN THE UK there’s nothing suitable to freeze, and only 1-2 blastocyst embryos available for transfer. Most clinics, in the absence of anything to freeze, will transfer whatever they can if possible. NHS cycles tend to be stricter about double embryo transfers and in that case the best one may be transferred and the lesser one destroyed (if it can’t be frozen) but that isn’t a consistant practice.

There are plenty of services that the nhs offers that aren't life saving, should we cut them all?

Indeed there are but there isn't a limitless pot of money. Infertility might be very sad on a personal level but that still doesn't mean the NHS should be obliged to fund it.

Re the number of eggs/ embryos another poster said For example, a women may have 12 eggs collected, 6 of them fertilise, and 4 make it to blastocyst stage

So in most IVF cycles, would all the viable embryos be implanted?

One to freeze is an exception.

You said there were no left over embryos in the vast majority of cycles? So is one to freeze an exception?

Of course most people are ignorant about what goes on in IVF. That’s part of the reason for having a thread about it- to learn.

The HFEA has statistics available on their website.

Say you got 12 eggs, not all of those will fertilise so you could end up with 8 fertilising and becoming embryos, to maximise the chance of a healthy pregnancy and live birth they try to get to day 5 blastocyst stage. Most of the 8 won't make it so the chances are you'd end up with 1 to use and 1 to freeze.

I think people don't fully understand the Ivf process and the ignorance shows.

I read one doctor say that the average number of embryos created was 12 per cycle. Is there some official source to get better evidence?