Did misogyny win the 2016 US election?

Trump like Farage convinced enough people who were desperate for change that he is not an elite.

I think they knew he was an elite. In some ways he traded on that, he said he understood how the elite had screwed them, because he did it himself, and he knew how the system worked. He also said he'd use that knowledge to help them, and they traded on him doing so.

Which seems like bad bet, except that HC denied that the elites were screwing anyone and certainly wouldn't have done anything about it.

So either way it's plebs 0, elites infinity.

The analysis of the election results suggests that Sanders would have done better than Hilary did, and might well have won against Trump.

It's hardly absurd to say so, so I am wondering about why you would say that.

It doesn't do much for your cause to call the system working as it is supposed to is cheating. It isn't meant to count only the popular vote. Trump may be reprehensible but that isn't an exammple of him cheating.

Sorry to be boring but in terms of who was the better candidate, Clinton obviously was as she got more votes that Trump.

But because Trump won by cheating he opened the flood gates to reactionary white male patriarchy gaining a foot hold. (How many of us wonder how Gilead ever started?)

But like Theresa May who I referenced in my earlier posts, the party system is far happier to scapegoat a lone female than look at their failures.

The idea that Sanders could have won is absurd.

And Saradon is being criticised not for any anti feminism but for the most appalling notion that other peoples lives should be destroyed (dont forget children have died separated from their parents because of Trump) to prove that right wing policies are lethal. That is the sort of attitude that just sees people who are not part of the elite class as being cannon fodder at the front line while they remain airchair activists. Thoroughly despicable.

And the supposed popularity of populists like Farage and Trump may make good clips for tv news, but their popularity may be loud but it is a minority of the population. But MSM think they are good copy. They are the ones who legitimise their politics.

The majority are those who dont vote. But that would require MSM and those who think gossip on social meda is actual news to actual look at facts.

The US and the rest of the world are landed with a white male supremacist who didn't actually win and is happy to secure his position by pandering to religious fundamentalists.

And not forgetting that as a group more white women voted for Trump than they did for Clinton.

In the meantime for anyone wanting to engage with reality rather than endless stating their world view point as being the viewpoint, despite my earlier statement about people letting apathy continue this ridiculous state of affairs of a rigged system here are some links.

Elizabeth Warren abcnews.go.com/Politics/electoral-college-limits-campaign-playing-field-popular-voting/story?id=61794513

Campaign: www.nationalpopularvote.com/

I think it was part of it, but not the biggest part. Trump like Farage convinced enough people who were desperate for change that he is not an elite. Clinton was very much a Washington insider and I think more damage was done to her by being connected to Bill. There was a fair bit of disgusting sexist talk though and it has to be a factor and there are some throwbacks who think women cant do a proper leadership job. FFS you just have to look at the best by a universe Euro leader A. Merkel to see what idiots those who think that are.

I think you are underestimating what a Marmite figure Hillary was.
And that's among people inclined to vote Democrat. Republicans HATE her.
Similarly, I'm sad to say, Obama was not as popular at home as he was abroad although he is more generally loved than Hillary.

Did misogyny win the 2016 US election?
Yes.

perhaps those who are invested in it are less good at picking up shifts in certain groups of voters who may not vote consistently but who turned out for Trump.

One view of this is that major donors to and members of to the Democrats support the Clinton approach to economics, and very much oppose the Sanders view. They have no interest in electing someone who will look to make real changes.

Maybe she was the wrong candidate but I wonder how those people like Jill Stein who said she was no different to Trump feel now.

I think this is important, because it may represent a real divide in how people think about this.

I am sure that besides beig personally appalled by Trump, Stein and others who had the same view are very worried about certain things. The whole separation of children from parents, the stupid wall stuff, the inability to work with congress, the inability with regard to diplomacy, and so on. I am also sure they worry about the long term damage he might do.

But I suspect that many of those people are mainly taking a wider and longer term view, and from that perspective Clinton, though she would not have made the same kinds of errors as Trump, looms as a real, maybe even greater, danger.

From this perspective Clinton represents the neoliberal politics that supports global corporatist capitalism, destroys the environment, and creates massive social and economic equality. In a real way, voting for Clinton would mean supporting the type of policies and politics that gave us the election of Trump. So in the short term, perhaps you would avoid DT and his stupid and evil ways. But there will be another Trump, maybe a worse one, or some other extreme reaction. Neoliberal politics and economics are unstable and that will play out one way or another.

A specific example to think about might be economic protectionism. trump seems to be a buffoon here as in all else. But Stein and others are in many ways closer to Trump's position, that controlling trade in the national interest is both possible and necessary. Clinton's commitment to free trade isn't be seen as a positive alternative to Trump.

Bebstar I thought your post about the podcasts was really interesting. In many ways the Democratic electoral machine is incredibly effective but perhaps those who are invested in it are less good at picking up shifts in certain groups of voters who may not vote consistently but who turned out for Trump. As somebody else said, like Brexit here.

I think misogyny paid a part but it is worth noting that black women and/or college educated were the only groups of women more likely to vote for her than Trump.

Maybe she was the wrong candidate but I wonder how those people like Jill Stein who said she was no different to Trump feel now.

I think misogyny was a contributory factor. I also think Hillary Clinton should have been aware that misogyny coupled with the baggage she came with meant there was a good chance she would lose. She should have stepped aside for the greater good. And no, I'm not saying that the woman should be the one to make sacrifices. I'm saying Hillary Clinton wasn't the right candidate to beat Trump.

Well yeah, if Clinton and her Wall Street Possy Mafia hadn't screwed Sanders, Trump would have lost to Sanders, so you're right on that point

Ha! Though it's not really funny. To bring this back to a feminism angle, though, it might be that it's a good reminder that candidates policies are more important than their sex or identity group. There were people who accused Sarandon of being a bad feminist for not supporting HC.

If he hadn't been up against a woman, he wouldn't have won
Well yeah, if Clinton and her Wall Street Possy Mafia hadn't screwed Sanders, Trump would have lost to Sanders, so you're right on that point

No stumbledin , I am a through and through skeptic. I believe that the MSM media is largely a propaganda tool for those in power. Trump isn't enthralled to them hence all the "fake news". You should read the Podesta emails and see all the NYT writers in there fawning over Clinton and offering her editorial control. See the DNC executive plotting how to destroy Bernie. How can the same MSM who claim that trans women are women which I know is scientifically untrue, also be correct on everything else. I imagine you also believe that Trump colluded with Russia. Fisa documents will be declassified next month, which will show that parts of the Obama administration colluded with the UK, Australia and Italy in order to illegally spy on the Trump administration. Comey, Clapper and Brennan are already pointing the fingers at each other, because it is Treason. Has the MSM media reported this ? Operation crossfire, how 6 spies were fired in Italy last week. How the head of Mi6 resigned when Trump was elected?

Anyway, saying that Clinton is the winner, not Trump, reminds me a bit of the scene in Game of Thrones where Littlefinger tries to tell Cersei that knowledge is power, and she tells him no, power is power.

If the ec is undemocratic because it isn't the popular vote, the people who claim the EU is inherently undemocratic are right - though not in the way they think! If it was abolished the people of the South, or the midwest, would have a good argument for leaving the union, as the president would be chosen by the urban dwellers on the coasts every time. No taxation without representation!

As for Sarandon, if she believes that Clinton has bad policies and was morally bankrupt she is perfectly entitled to make that argument. It's odd to complain about the ec being undemocratic and then complain because she wants to contribute to the political discourse. Although, both seem to involve making sure people you don't agree with don't get a say.

As a Bernie supporter Susan Sarandon was well within her rights to criticize Clinton. Clinton has long had a reputation as a war hawk. Also after the shenanigans at the DNC that screwed Bernie Sanders a lot of Bernie supporters were done with Clinton. I remember an influx of angry Bernie supporters to reddit who said they would never vote Clinton.

Hello to all of you saying you knew Trump would win because of the size of his rallies - that's just media manipulation just like they tried to pretend more people attended his inauguration.

Trump LOST the popular vote.

The only people who can claim to say they predicted he would win would be those who named the states with the swing votes in the Electoral college.

And Trump won in those states because like Boris he made false promises about revitalising old industries that in reality can not compete against, for instance, the dumping of state subsidised steel by China.

But this lying hypocrite "winning" through cheating has opened up not just the US but other parts of the world to reinstating reactionary right wing males imposing their anti woman policies.

So any of you claiming you knew Trump would win would you care to explain how you knew he would get the number of votes needed in the relevant Electoral College states which has nothing to do with rallies or Michael More.

Seriously this is allowing the media to tell you how to think.

They just do this myth making to justify how they failed to challenge the lies during the campaign.

So one more time, Trump was NOT the winner, he did not get the most votes.

Clinton got more votes and is the winner despite what media commentators say.

Goosefoot

I think you have misunderstood what i said

The Electoral College is a weighted system that means people in heavily populated areas are forced to accept as the "inner" the choice of people in lower population density.

Why should city dwellers have to live by the decisions of rural workers.

Its nuts.

And it isn't even about proportional representation.

This is about the post of President. One person one vote. Its anti democratic and based on an issue that is centuries out of date.

It makes the US look ridiculous!

And nowhere did i say susan sarandom was right wing. She was so busy signalling her left credentials that she said not supporting Clinton and letting Trump in wouldn't really be a problem because it wouldn't hurt (ie to teach all those dumb people who wanted to defeat Trump) that they could "learn" from people experiencing real loss of liberties (who of course wouldn't by hip media types well insulated from a reactionary government).

People in the US have been trying to dismantle the Electoral College for decades as it is patently undemocratic, but politcal apathy meant nothing has happened.

So now America and world is having to suffer the idiocy of Trump because people couldn't be bothered.

Susan Sarandon was a Sanders supporter. Is she right wing because she's a woman with a political opinion?

The electoral college is only undemocratic if you think the only factor in a democratic system is the majority always wins. Most (all?) functional democracies have a variety of ways to mitigate the problems that come with always following the will of the majority.
There are real questions as to whether the ec functions entirely as was intended, but it exists for the same reason their senate does, or other geographically based legislative bodies in other systems. The US is a large country with a lot of geography.

Michael Moore, the filmaker, also predicted the Trump win.

Bebstar123 I love podcasts like that do you have any recommendations? 😊
I also knew Trump was going to win months before he did. I randomly watched one of his rallies on YouTube and the crowd size difference between his rallies and Clinton's was monumental. He also has a charisma that connects to ordinary every day people. I lurked a lot on the_donald after the Podesta emails were released , despite being warned that is was a racist cesspool. I went in expecting BNP/Stormfront and what I found was ordinary every day people of all classes, colours and sexes who just loved their country, no racism , no sexism just patriots. That the media was framing them as deplorable is why Clinton lost. She is of the same political class that is so disconnected from ordinary people, she would have represented more of the same. Like when Obama said the jobs are never coming back and a lot of liberals made jokes about how ex factory workers needed to learn to code. Or other comments I saw that basically said the opioid crisis can be ignored as it mainly affects white people. Identity politics has infected the left and until they return to addressing actual problems: housing, jobs, crime they are destined to be in the wilderness for years to come. I predict Trump will walk it in 2020, landslide. The left still doesn't get that constantly calling someone racist, sexist or stupid will not make them vote for you.
Ps: I think only a few outfits correctly predicted the 2016 outcome, the LA Times because they based their prediction on asking who your neighbour was going to vote for and a Bill Mitchell a Twitter sensation who based it on rallies, bumper stickers etc www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/charliewarzel/bill-mitchells-revenge

The piont is that in terms of actual votes Hilary Clinton won.

She lost because Americans who seem to think they can teach and impose (via war) "democracy" on others, actually have undemocratic voting system.

So the US and consequently the rest of the world have had a looser who actual didn't win taking decisions that are impacting on all of us.

So unless and until Americans get their act together and dismantle to Electoral College they will continue to be a country where the loser because the President.

The more significant point is probably that more people through not voting showed that they didn't want either Clinton or Trump.

But did misogyny play a part. Yes you saw it everyday, including young women potentially democratic voters turning against HC as much for her age as her sex.

Not forgetting Susan Sarandon who thought a good dose of right wing reactionarism would make us appreciate liberal democracy. I wonder if the young children separated from their mothers are glad that their suffering is "teaching" us all a lesson.

So despite sexism and ageism HC won, but she was robbed by a weighted system put in place to protect southern slave owning states.

I think in fact, although I am not a supporter, that Theresa May has suffered far more sexism both from her fellow Tories and the media, who have been relentless is characterising her as a problem female, who doesn't cry in the performative way that public figures are now meant to , and worst of all went about Brexit as some dreary task she had to perform, so that all the fanatics could scream at her for not honouring their personal vision of Brexit.

And in less that a week, as confirmed by the EU, what is dubbed HER deal, but is in fact their deal, is the only one we are going to get. But the response from MPs of all parties, which I suspect they would not have ventured into, and that clown Bercow wouldn't have meddled in the way he did, which was to deride her was totally down to sexism.

It's the floating voters who affect the election.How many of them are they?

They aren't a huge number. And its not totally about population because the electoral college makes it a bit more complicated.

But they are an interesting group. Among the things that made them interesting with Trump is that a lot of them had previously voted for Obama.
In terms of the EC, some states like Michigan, traditionally have chosen a Democrat. Lots of steel manufacturing jobs, lots of union voters. But also many people who tend to have more conservative social views, and plenty (not all by any means) of those don't fall under the identity group programs the Democrats see as their important social programs. Lots of people who no longer have jobs or who don't see their kids as having secure jobs.
The Clinton campaign assumed those people would vote for her like they always have, and she didn't even visit those states in her campaigning. Trump, on the other hand, spent a lot of time there. He talked about job losses, he talked about the destruction of American manufacturing in order to put wages into the pockets of corporate owners who shipped the jobs to cheaper overseas workers. And while they were listening he also whipped up a certain amount of anger around the identity groups the Democrats were talking about.

Amazingly, from the perspective of the Clinton campaign, those states voted for Trump and that shift won him the election. It also went a long way IMO to increasing the heat around race politics, and HC gets the blame or that as well as Trump.