'Women can read maps — they just need Lego '

I'm brilliant good at reading maps from any angle and have a strong sense of direction too. I only came across the idea that women were bad at reading maps as an adult because in my family our DM was the acknowledged queen of maps.

When my DPs were in their teens during WW2 they used to go on epic hikes on Exmoor in a mixed group of a dozen or so. The whole group relied on my DM to get them home, which she did using a map and her sense of direction.

To me an upside down map is one not turned in the direction of travel, but to people who don't use them it often seems to mean not having North at the top.

I don't think it's anything to do with whether or not you use maps often, it's purely a language issue, and people on this thread have used it in both ways.

I initially assumed Mangoes post early in the thread to mean 'upside down' in your sense. But the thing I discovered was that when they say men are better at reading maps - It's a very specific thing - It's reading the map upside down that they are good at.

But then other people seemed to mean 'upside down' in the literal sense. So then I got confused.

A couple of years ago I watched a documentary about Tubu women who cross the Sahara desert without a map or compass. It was amazing, I really recommend watching it if you can.

Wondering about links between mental rotation ability and evolution.........if men did all the flint knapping and hunting (supposedly hones mental rotation skills), whilst the graceful laydees did all the gathering, then surely the gatherers should be ace at map reading (since they need to orient themselves in a landscape and be able to find good food sources again -- you can't just potter about at random and assume you'll stumble across a tuber!)

I've read a little bit about theorising around this. What they suggested is the directionality/spacial component with men is related mental maps for hunting, or maybe not even maps but how the hunter relates himself to moving prey. While the gathering thing involved mental maps as well, but much more like landmarking, which tends to be how women prefer to navigate.

I can read a map, and I'm teaching DDs to turn their maps.

I've always claimed my ability to read maps is down to my ability to get lost walking down the road if I don't have a map with me.

I like Lego too (and DDs love their Lego friends... Recent themes have included snowsports, go cart track and a theme park... Terrible hobbies for girls...)

As regards rotating the map, I don't when using a road atlas (bit too hard to do so when a large one), so have to do the mental rotation as regards 'take the 3rd left'. With OS maps and going across country, that would make more sense to rotate. especially where you need to try and align physical features of the landscape that you can see with their abstract representation on the map.

Jigsaws, I rotate the pieces, but there is also some mental rotation going on as well, when guessing which would be a piece worth bothering with. The missus (engineer so should be good at the mental rotation) is useless at pattern-matching for jigsaws (or perhaps just takes the engineers approach of if we take a bit off here, THEN it will fit! Why she isn't allowed scissors when we are doing jigsaws!)

I'm failing to find anything significant so far as regards mental reflection (mirrors!), and possible sex differences....................

Wondering about links between mental rotation ability and evolution.........if men did all the flint knapping and hunting (supposedly hones mental rotation skills), whilst the graceful laydees did all the gathering, then surely the gatherers should be ace at map reading (since they need to orient themselves in a landscape and be able to find good food sources again -- you can't just potter about at random and assume you'll stumble across a tuber!). Although AFAIK, we don't even have evidence that the muscley males did the flint knapping in the first place. And I bet something ladylike like basket weaving requires similar mental rotation skills to flint knapping anyway..............

OldCrone

Ah, yes, I see what you mean, yes, I agree with you, you have to turn it. To me an upside down map is one not turned in the direction of travel, but to people who don't use them it often seems to mean not having North at the top.

When I was teaching, some people seemed to turn it naturally, and for others it is a revelation. Though often the problem is they don't fold the map, and its impossible to turn it when it is open, as it is too big. Even for people who can read a map when they are facing the wrong direction, I think you are less likely to make an error if you make a habit of turning it in the direction of travel.

What I've always struggled with is elevations on a map. Unless it is really obvious I have to work it out. My husband is very good at it, he can see the map and just visualise the landforms.

I don't know if it would be unusual that boys might be ahead in this skill as children. Girls are typically substantially ahead of boys in reading and language skills at those ages, its a real factor in teaching that age group.

Presumably while girls' brains are racing ahead in that area, boys' are doing something else. To a large degree it seems to even out later on but it would not be odd that the difference is reflected somewhat later on.

It is odd that some skills like sewing aren't recognised generally as spacial, but I do think people who are better at them tend to have good spacial thinking. Hairdressing is another example. Insofar as sewing or carpentry have a historical gendered association, I think its for reasons other than relative spacial ability of men and women.

Crochet and knitting are both very mathematical. For example see this pattern for crocheting a perfect sphere: www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/ideal-sphere

Even without searching for geometric perfection, most knitters / crocheters will work out how to change increases / decreases to improve fit, adjust for yarn weight and tension as standard.

Cross posted with you, Goosefoot. I thought SciFiScream and you were saying opposite things, but perhaps you were saying the same. I've always rotated the map to the direction of travel, and I'm baffled by people who don't do that. I was surprised that the military were suggesting that you shouldn't rotate the map (which is what I understood SciFiScream to be saying).

I think the misunderstanding was due to what people mean by 'upside down'. I was assuming people meant literally 'upside down' (i.e. with the writing upside down), but perhaps they meant 'not in the direction of travel'. But maybe some people did mean literally 'upside down'. Which makes this discussion very confusing.

Your long description about map rotation is what I do - what I was saying to SciFiScream was if you can't turn your map 'upside down' (literally, with the writing upside down), then north is always at the top, so to orientate yourself to the map when going south, you have to walk backwards.

Not sure what you're confused about, goosefoot so don't know how to explain. At this point, a recommendation to read Cordelia Fine's 'delusions of gender' must be overdue.

I dislike Fine, I think she cherrypicks the evidence she presents and it undermines her argument.

As far as your comment, it's straightforward, I don't see what you are responding to. What is "that"?

It seems even anecdotally on this thread there is wide variation.
I'm a map turner, DH isn't. I don't think he's an idiot - he's better at navigating than me, although I'm pretty good at it.
Neither of us were big Lego fans.

RandomlyChosenName When you’re on google maps click on the compass to change from north always upwards to directional and vice versa.

Knitting is similar - it’s basically coding for making 3D fabric but you never hear of men being told they’re crap at understanding code because they can’t read knitting patterns.

Oh, I like that! If you can crochet, you can code? Dumbledore liked his knitting patterns though..............

Just had a mad thought -- given that girls supposedly like messing about preening, I wonder if this means that girls are more used to deciphering information obtained using a mirror, and so are better at spatial reflection?

Also interesting to note, cultural differences, and adults who use sign language are better at spatial rotation skills as well!

Still annoyed about sex bias in Springwatch, sick of hearing about magnificent male capercaillie boinging about making daft noises, whilst the boring ole brown female who does all of the reproductive labour...............

Ive always hated Lego. I’m average at reading maps etc. I have physical thinking though (don’t know how else to describe it?). I process visual information better through touch. So if I can trace my finger along a map my understanding of it is a thousand times better. Maybe Lego teaches this?

That's exactly what it's about.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean?

I find Google maps on a phone more challenging than a paper map in this regard as north is always at the top and if I turn my phone round the map just turns round back to north at the top too!

You should be able to switch off the screen rotation to stop this.

How do you do that in a car? And even if walking, how would you do that all the time without walking backwards or sideways?

This is a little more difficult if you are in a car. But the idea is you find the part of the map you are using, and you want first to fold it so that it is an easy size to hold onto. Most maps fold up naturally, but it can be a bit of a trick to learn to do it so the part you want is on the top.

The next thing is to find where you are on the map, and then you have to place yourself in the same direction as the map. The easiest way may be to look at some obvious feature on the map that you can actually see near you, something like a big hill or a lake, and turn your body in the direction of that feature. Turn the map so that feature is at the "top". So if you look down across the map, you can imagine an ant walking along it in the same direction you are facing will get to the mountain on the map, just as you walking on the ground in the exact same direction will get there.

So - if the mountain is to the north of you, you will walk north across the earth while the ant walks north across the map.

Now, if you need to change direction, what you need to do is turn the map as you turn on the ground. Let's say you are part way to the mountain but now you need to turn and walk along to a pond to the east. You stop, and look at your map, with the mountain to the top. The pond in the east will be a turn to the right for the ant. So you also turn your body to the right. But then you need to change your map. You are now walking toward the pond, so the pond should be at the top of your map, so you must rotate your map to the left.

The thing you are walking towards should always be turned to the top of the map you are looking at.
Now, if you walk out of the part you can see, you need to refold your map. This is what is tricky about car maps, because you are so fast you keep driving out of the part of the map you have open. Ideally you need someone to navigate for you, but it helps to have a smaller scale map for driving and with no one to help you should really pull over when you need to change your map around.