'Women can read maps — they just need Lego '

The problem with generalisations like this, is that even at a young age, those children will have been treated differently by some adults in their lives, depending on whether they are boys or girls. So socialisation comes into play.

Perhaps, but it's true at very young ages, including infants, and seems to be true as well of other primates, and IIRC it holds fairly true across cultures as well. That's going to be about the best kind of evidence you could get.

I don't know anyone who would say that socialisation has no effect, so that is a given. But to my mind it's true to that evidence to conclude that there may be real factors besides socialisation - when you try and eliminate that as a variable as much as possible that's what seems to be indicated.

But I can't see any evidential reasons to conclude that there are no other factors or that it is unlikely there are, that seems to be purely an ideological position.

The military advises turning the map around (in the direction of travel) because it's more idiot proof, surely.

I was replying to someone who said

Turning the map around is for people who can't do space rotation in their heads and need the easier option

It is easier. And you seem to agree with me:

Implying it was easier if you turned it round. (...)
Does anyone think it's actually harder to read a map which is orientated in the direction of travel?

Also, it was in reply to the "idiot" comment.

I can't speak for other people, but I don't even need to think about it it, so it is no harder than reading a map the right way up.

I was replying to someone who said

Turning the map around is for people who can't do space rotation in their heads and need the easier option.

Implying it was easier if you turned it round. For some people, clearly it makes no difference, just like reading upside down writing is no harder for some people.

The military seem to think it's a good idea to turn the map to the direction of travel, though, and it could be very important for them - if they got lost they might accidentally invade the wrong country. So I'm happy with my method.

Does anyone think it's actually harder to read a map which is orientated in the direction of travel?

I always turn the map so that I'm travelling up the page. Men often don't seem to need to do this, perhaps because they tend to be better at doing the rotations inside their heads. But even that is likely to be a skill they've learned.

That's really interesting I do that too. I can read maps perfectly well in my opinion (and I am good at parking too :-)). However I recall a time when as a child orienteering the male teacher told us NOT to turn the map...and I got us hopelessly lost. I found not turning the map really confusing. Makes much more sense to me to turn it. I don't think that makes anyone better or worse at map reading. As long as you can both work out now to get somewhere!

I do not however have a good sense of direction. I pretty much always get this wrong whereas my DH always seems to know roughly in what direction things are.

Why would you make life harder for yourself?

I can't speak for other people, but I don't even need to think about it it, so it is no harder than reading a map the right way up.

Either way could be said to be making life harder.

Depending on your particular skills. For me, I like to have the map in the direction of travel, because I find it requires thought to rotate the map in my head. Reading upside down writing, for me, is no harder than reading it the right way up, so no extra mental effort is required.

Basically, I find it ironic that a person who needs to turn a map around calls those who can read maps facing north idiots.

Can't you read upside down writing?

It's like going south with the map facing north.

Either way could be said to be making life harder.

The point is that I don't find having a map pointing north as harder than rotating it. I simply don't need it.
So, for me, the limited map readers are the ones who have to rotate it.

This has made me want to go and check what DD (16) does when reading a map.

She's always had very good spatial skills, and when they did a computerised aptitude test for various things at school this year (she's in GCSE year, it was part of a careers thing) she scored pretty much off the chart in terms of spatial skills (3D rotations etc). I have never seen her use a physical map, however - it's all google maps on her phone.

To contribute to the anecdata collection: DD did play a lot with lego, blocks and puzzles as a small child, but only as part of a range of all sorts of other toys. I am female and have no trouble reading maps, reverse parking etc, and also had lego as a child (though not as much as my DCs did).

Turning the map around is for people who can't do space rotation in their heads and need the easier option.

Why would you make life harder for yourself? Are you trying to prove something?

All the writing will be upside down, surely?

Does that matter? Can't you read upside down writing?

I’m amazed to find from this thread that there are actually people who have to turn a map upside down if they’re walking south!
Why on earth would you do that? All the writing will be upside down, surely? Why can’t you just project yourself into the map and accept the fact that the left and right turns are reversed? I’ve done this from childhood, and never owned a Lego brick in my life. But I am autistic, which probably helps.

If I saw someone hold the map north upwards whilst going south I'd think they were an idiot.

Interesting.
I've always thought it is harder to keep the map with north upwards while going south. Because you have to rotate it in your head, and turning left becomes turning right.

I visualise space around me with reference to the North, so it's easy for me to follow a map with the North upwards.

Turning the map around is for people who can't do space rotation in their heads and need the easier option. Just saying...

She is also extremely competent when navigating using maps. What she lacks though is an ability to build up a map of her surroundings in her head without seeing a printed map first.

I have this problem. I don't know if it's linked to my total inability to find my way around without the help of a map.

I found relocating from the Northern hemisphere to the Southern very disconcerting. Shadows moved in the wrong direction as did the phases of the Moon.

If nothing else, this thread has shown me that I am right to prefer my maps in the direction of travel.

From personal experience, I can also see merit in developing spatial awareness through play & experience. As a child, I wasn't encouraged to play with things that would help to build these skills and find it hard to convert 2D images to 3D reality. I have occasionally described myself as having "diagram dyslexia".

I struggle not just with map orientation, but also with most 2D diagrams. I remember getting a copy of Encarta in the '90s and was blown away by 3D images and videos. All the anatomy, I had found so hard to understand from textbooks made perfect sense - instantly.

My wife is an engineer and played with Lego from an early age. She is also extremely competent when navigating using maps. What she lacks though is an ability to build up a map of her surroundings in her head without seeing a printed map first. Otherwise, her memory is fine.

My sister also played with Lego from an early age. She is absolutely hopeless with a map.

I usually have North at the top on a map while navigating in a car, on foot, I'll turn the map to the direction I am going. I have no idea what my wife does. Not all maps have North at the top though, which can be a bit confusing at first.

I have not noticed my inbuilt navigation abilities affected by switching from Northern to Southern hemisphere, vice versa, or on the Equator.

Does someone need to mention the distinction between brain and mind?

Some studies suggest that males and females, as a group, at a young age have different things that they like.

The problem with generalisations like this, is that even at a young age, those children will have been treated differently by some adults in their lives, depending on whether they are boys or girls. So socialisation comes into play.

I can read maps

But Lego is a total fecker of a toy. It waits for the unwary every single day to step on with bare feet.

Hurty.

LEGOPHOBIC

I never had any interest in LEGO, Meccano, jigsaws, puzzles. I can write code but find doing so boring. I don’t think these things are necessarily linked in the way that people believe they are.

I think a lot of these things have different facets. Interest is one, what if its not ability but interest that is innate? Some studies suggest that males and females, as a group, at a young age have different things that they like.

I was very good at coding in high school, my teacher suggested that I might want to take a degree in computer science. I did well in symbolic logic at university too. But I found them both very tedious, so I didn't go on to become practiced at higher levels or develop my mental capacities. Lots of people are much better than I am at them, even though they may have come easily for me at the beginning.
There is some evidence that females from a young age are more likely to be interested in tasks that involve people. If that were innate, it would tend to direct interests somewhat.

Does anyone really doubt that plenty of men are bad at maps, and plenty of women are good at them? Or that experience plays a role, or that people can usually learn things that don' come naturally to them?

But as far as the scientific question, it really seems to be about whether on a population level there is some innate difference that affects how people, on a population level, tend to develop their spacial abilities. It's very difficult to know whether factors like stereotypical activities are stereotypical because one sex is somewhat inclined to be better at them, or there is some other reason they become associated and the activity itself creates the increased ability to do the task? Or a bit of both.

But its not in the end really useful to talk about anecdotal evidence, surely there has never been some total difference even in culturally determined activities. Men and women both have to use their spacial sense at times or people wouldn't be able to function.

I can read maps (I look at the map and memorise routes, both visually and as sequences of places/roads, so I don’t have to consult it often) estimate the time accurately, aim at and catch things easily and do other things that rely on spatial awareness and good coordination. I have a degree in Maths. I never had any interest in LEGO, Meccano, jigsaws, puzzles. I can write code but find doing so boring. I don’t think these things are necessarily linked in the way that people believe they are.