'Women can read maps — they just need Lego '

Bicker, from what I've read there are some visual skills which women tend to be better at, for example, seeing small differences between two similar arrangements of objects, while men tend to be better at rotating objects in their heads.

I guess both skills are useful in different situations!

Actually to balance it out, I'm also utterly pants at sewing, knitting and general tidiness.

Excellent at cooking though.

"As mentioned by Goosefoot earlier, a difference in spatial cognition between male and female animals has been observed, some of the human studies have been on babies a few months old and the findings on spatial cognition differences hold across cultures."
Animals tend to be more sexually dimorphic than us humans? What studies on babies can they do 3d rotation? Although even little babies have already been exposed to sexual stereotyping, and I wouldn't be surprised if the interactions (isn't he active, isn't she good (and quiet) steroetypical interactions based on assumed sex via clothing colour) haven't had an effect in terms of what the babies get exposed to perhaps? Like fast, zoomy toy play encouraging tracking for what someone thinks is a boy, and calmer, hand it to her and let her grasp it toy play for a girl??

Of course, I'm hypothesizing here from a position of almost total ignorance :-)
Across cultures, as I recall, women from some cultures as good as men from others when it comes to spatial rotation, so the gap is closable in some sense. And all cultures are patriarchal after all.................So, was a conspiracy of the Patriarchy to stop females reading maps and escaping to a feminist utopia (if anyone knows the way, please send GPS coordinates :-) )..............

And yet, Outwith, from time immemorial, girls and women have been constructing elaborate clothing and clothing patterns, which of course requires understanding of geometry, along with rates of change along a linear progression - and no one considers that a skill using innate spatial awareness

Are all women good at that though, or is it the same proportion that can easily read maps etc?

Goosefoot i do understand wha vyou are saying but i think people get nervous when there are small statistical differences between groups as they get latched onto and suddenly being statistically less likely to have good map skills means noone expects you to have these skills or gives you the opportunity to try and the small difference becomes a huge gaping gap.

from time immemorial, girls and women have been constructing elaborate clothing and clothing patterns, which of course requires understanding of geometry, along with rates of change along a linear progression - and no one considers that a skill using innate spatial awareness.

So? Does anyone think women are totally incapable of any spacial work? We aren't constantly running into things after all. That women can sew, and some do so very well, doesn't really tell us whether or not there are innate differences.

If there is an innate difference (at a population level) then it'd be helpful if we tried to counter it rather than exacerbate it by gendered socialisation, wouldn't it?

I guess it would depend on what you mean by countering it. If we think everyone should have high school physics, or should be able to read a map, which both seem plausible, then I think normal people of both sexes can accomplish that.
On the other hand, often people like work they are naturally good at, and the very best at certain type of work are often people who have some natural advantage. Do we really need a 50-50 male female split among engineers, or other jobs where there are sex imbalances? I am not sure that matters in many cases. And in general I don't see value in pushing people into work they find less enjoyable because of ideology.

The other issue though is that if some innate differences are real, the social element will be caused by that. If 80% of nurses are women, then you can try to make people aware that some nurses are men, or try and make sure interested men get a chance, or the workplace isn't hostile to them. Those things should be taught. But you won't change the perception that women are more likely to be, or be interested in, nursing. Because the stereotype comes from the real observation.

And yet, Outwith, from time immemorial, girls and women have been constructing elaborate clothing and clothing patterns, which of course requires understanding of geometry, along with rates of change along a linear progression - and no one considers that a skill using innate spatial awareness.

I think there’s a great deal of cognitive bias in the research seeking to find innate differences in male and female abilities, and some of that bias lies in the very definition of what constitutes ability.

I didn't make the 'idiot' comment

I didn't say you did.

Sorry about that Errol, try this:

nautil.us/issue/32/space/men-are-better-at-maps-until-women-take-this-course

Or google 'Men are better at maps until women take this course'

I always wonder why it would matter if, as a whole population, men and women differ on this? Or on any thing, as there are areas where women seem to have an edge.
I think it's interesting, and possibly useful if we are trying to think about reasons that, for example, there might be more male than female engineers, or more female GPs. But I don't think it tells us anything about what some particular individual is good at, or likes, or should do, and I don't think it tells us anything about the relative value of men and women.

My dad always made me orientate my map. Part of his job was navigation (not cars) so i learned from a pro. I dont have to orientate my map to read it but i feel like im doing it wrong if i dont. I also have a great sense of direction. I did have lego as a toy.

Im not that great at other spatial awareness things like looking at a big box and knowing if it will fit in my boot though.

I don’t think you can ignore the studies which point to an innate difference in the spatial abilities of men and women.

As mentioned by Goosefoot earlier, a difference in spatial cognition between male and female animals has been observed, some of the human studies have been on babies a few months old and the findings on spatial cognition differences hold across cultures.

That’s not to say that socialisation doesn’t have a role to play too.

The good news is that women - and men - can hone their skills in this domain.

In this regard, I was interested in the work of a female professor of engineering who devised a programme to help her (female) students improve their 3D thinking. She had discovered that her female students struggled more in this area than her male students, and would often drop out, thinking engineering wasn’t for them. The professor recalled having more difficulties in this area than her male peers when she was a student too.

The initiative improved retention rates amongst female students.

I think it’s really important to acknowledge that women may find such tasks more difficult than their male counterparts and not adopt the rigid idealogical position that it's all sociocultural.

Oops! Knitting patterns already addressed — that’ll teach me to RTFT when I’m pissed off.

This map thing always pisses me off.

How many men can read a knitting pattern?

Sadly I fit into pretty much every female stereotype it's possible to fit into WRT this sort of thing

My wife is pretty good at all those things. Oddly enough, she did once genuinely believe that she had been born a boy.

Also, it was in reply to the "idiot" comment.

I didn't make the 'idiot' comment, Lweji. Although I did reply to it, saying that some people (like my husband) find it very easy to do the mental rotation, so don't need to rotate the map. I don't think he's an idiot for being able to do something I can't. Although if someone refused to rotate the map and then got lost, I might think they were an idiot.

The military advises turning the map around (in the direction of travel) because it's more idiot proof, surely.

Which is my point. Some people need the map in the direction of travel, some people don't care which way the map is orientated, so the default is the one everyone can do. The easy option.

Sadly I fit into pretty much every female stereotype it's possible to fit into WRT this sort of thing:

• HATE and am utterly useless at DIY
• Cannot read a map. Genuinely have trouble even following SatNav I'm so crap.
• Rubbish at maths and science at school, no interest in either now despite the fact that I work as an ops manager so I use maths in my job a fair amount

My mother and my sister are both excellent at all the above things so quite what happened to me I really don't know!

*rather than when just navigating

If you practice walking in the woods or navigating in a car with a map that you move based on your direction, you become much quicker to notice things that are not right, errors you have made, or even changes to the landscape compared to the map. It's not just the direction of travel that is important

Agreed. I am more likely to turn the map to face the direction of travel in complex situations rather than just navigating from A to B on easy roads, particularly when walking.

The military advises turning the map around (in the direction of travel) because it's more idiot proof, surely.

It's true that they want a method that works well for everyone, even those with poor spacial sense.

But it's also true that everyone, even people who are not idiots and are good map readers, makes errors. And while you might not invade the wrong country, it is entirely likely that in the dark, in an unfamiliar place, where there is some confusion, you might wander into a minefield or, in my own real life experience, have a driver turn left instead of right and end up in the training impact area.

If you practice walking in the woods or navigating in a car with a map that you move based on your direction, you become much quicker to notice things that are not right, errors you have made, or even changes to the landscape compared to the map. It's not just the direction of travel that is important.