Imperial College London study into womb transplant for transwomen

Nauticant nails it.

I'll write what I wrote before. This business of uterine transplants into men appears to be about science but it is not. It's about getting the idea out there that men can give birth too, but not just yet, there are a few technical details to be sorted out first. So while we're waiting for the inevitable, let's get on with the social sciences side of things and accept that since men can give birth too (not yet, but soon, soon, it's bound to happen), then there are no real differences between men and women in terms of things that are material and significant. The only differences are simply surface ones like the chosen forms of appearance.

It is about trying to change how people think by assuming a medical horror is a run-of-the-mill thing just round the corner. It's Overton Window stuff, not science.

I came across wombtransplantuk last year. My first instinct was: it's a front.
Spend a minimal amount of time pretending this is a service for women, then segue into the real reason, wombs for men.
Not because this will ever be more than a Frankenstein experiment. But because there is money to be made, and laws, policies to be changed.

Make people think it's possible. Change ethics rules. Erase the distinctions between the sexes further, on paper. Blur the lines that distinguish women's health, and women's rights. Change the priority order of the most deserving. Perpetuate the myth that science is getting closer to enabling real sex change.

Keep feeding the machine.

Not read entire thread yet, so sorry if this point has been made already, but surely at the moment the Equality Act 2010 could only be involved for GRC holders? Their legal comparator is women. Non-GRC holders are legally men, to be compared against other men.

Until self-ID comes in.

I'd say there are a number of motivations and a number of desired outcomes...

I agree but I think they all stem from the same mind virus.

Transgenderism, transhumanism all stem from a superiority mind set. Man above nature, above “God”, above death, above reality.

The desire to hack reality and take control of it is why we are facing our imminent extinction. It is impossible to become the outside creator of a reality that you are intertwined with but it isn’t going to stop them trying.

Womb transplants into males will never be a thing (and they know it) because the intricate mechanisms of the female body will always be beyond our ken, but the pathological desire to gain control of what the female represents (chaos and creativity) is relentless and in lieu of control, they will take destruction. Of our bodies and language and rights.

This is only about the Overton window. It’s a psychological assault on our understanding of reality.

I'd say there are a number of motivations and a number of desired outcomes resisterpersister. One thing I've learned on here is that whether it's transgender, gender dysphoria, AGP, or TRAs, each of them is not just one thing.

On the plus side, if men with retrofit wombs becomes a thing, the demand for commercial surrogacy should drop accordingly.

Good news for women in the third world (bad news for western transmen whose radical, early hysterectomies will become the expected norm. Might see an and to puberty blockers though?)

Image: classic example of ‘give an inch, they’ll take a mile’.

You’d have to really, really want to carry your own kid to risk the side effects of anti rejection drugs!

Beyond the obvious increased vulnerability to viral and bacterial infections (prophylactic antibiotics, antivirals and antifungals can be prescribed) there is also a well-documented elevated post-transplant cancer and cardiovascular risk.

And, perhaps of particular interest to those taking hormones/having surgeries to ‘feminise’ one’s appearance, other side effects include:

Cushingoid facial oedema (moonface)
Hypertrichosis (abnormal hair growth everywhere, like the Victorian side show exhibits)
Gingival Hyperplasia (gums that overgrow your teeth)
Truncal obesity (and other weight gain)
Striae (extreme stretch marks)
Acne
Muscle weakness
Osteoporosis
Mood swings/depression

If the pay off is not dying due to organ failure, these are considered to be distressing but acceptable conditions but factor in the risk of birth defects/miscarriage/premature labour and the fact that infertility is not in itself life threatening, and I really cannot see how this is considered ethical for women, let alone men.

The NHS sometimes struggles to find enough critical care beds to cater for those on the current organ transplant list (although considering a young transman has already publicly stated that mastectomy for trans patients is just as important as mastectomy for those with breast cancer, I doubt such practicalities will enter the minds of enthusiastic would be womb-recipients).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47668136

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving cross posts!

it's like frankestein, i can't believe this is real.

nauticant I totally agree it's about shifting the Overton window, but the end goal isn't acceptance of transwomen as women - they're just a stepping stone to the Brave New World of tranhumanism, of designer babies and the increasing merging of humans with tech. If we don't wipe out humans with climate change, this is likely where we're heading. Millions (probably billions) are being invested in it already.

I know this sounds nuts, but spend some time listening to what futurists are saying and look at the money being invested in this. It is nuts, but it's real.

Look up Martine Rothblatt, for example, billionaire transwomen and transhumanist, who's investing in biotech, is on mission to recreate his wife's brain in robot form and who has written a book "From transgenderism to transhumanism: a manifesto"

There was an interesting MN thread on this the other day with a link to some good videos.

TBH I agree with whoever said that even if it's a hoax now, it'll almost certainly be possible one day (if we haven't gone extinct by then). And there will be demand for it - maybe not from most, given that SRS is a prerequisite and most don't want to give up their dicks - but among the most severely mentally ill there will be demand.

As to funding, the amazing thing about "being trans" is that it can happen to anybody, seemingly overnight. Women and people of colour struggle to reach high political office, become CEOs, gain recognition in STEM, but "transwomen" can achieve all that by the miracle of being indistinguishable from men, and then later "come out" as trans. It's no surprise that this group of people is unique in somehow being the most oppressed and vulnerable ever, and yet has so many members who are billionaires or working at the highest levels of political office. For that "transwoman" in Silicone Valley who is obsessed with transhumanism and creating sentient AI, £500K for something like this would be loose change.

I doubt that this will happen in our lifetime

The pace of change in technology is accelerating. Think of how much the world changed in our grandparents lifetime. The world will change significantly more than that in our lifetimes.

Scientists are already working on creating artificial wombs, and have managed it for lambs born prematurely, keeping them alive in an artificial wombs for 4 weeks.

Futurists are already wondering how humans might develop if we were "free" from the restrictions of having to travel the birth canal. Would we be able to grow bigger heads and brains, for example?

This may sound like hokum or science fiction, but there are people who take these kinds of ideas very seriously and who have access to the money, technology and expertise to make it happen.

I'll write what I wrote before. This business of uterine transplants into men appears to be about science but it is not. It's about getting the idea out there that men can give birth too, but not just yet, there are a few technical details to be sorted out first. So while we're waiting for the inevitable, let's get on with the social sciences side of things and accept that since men can give birth too (not yet, but soon, soon, it's bound to happen), then there are no real differences between men and women in terms of things that are material and significant. The only differences are simply surface ones like the chosen forms of appearance.

It is about trying to change how people think by assuming a medical horror is a run-of-the-mill thing just round the corner. It's Overton Window stuff, not science.

Idk if this is a hoax or not, but since it isn't legal or possible at this time, this 'survey' seems to me like a cruel form of bullying.
I wouldn't wave chocolate at an anorexic, I wouldn't taunt a childless women, but thats what this feels like.

I doubt that this will happen in our lifetime, it's though of particular relevance to those born looking female but later it's realised they are intersex. Research is just that not that it's happening. As for the age, it's so far off that recruiting a 16 year old who may be 40 by the time the project proceeds is sensible

I honestly think that as a species we're totally fucked, and we're destroying the planet and other life forms too, while we're at it.
None of this is progress.

I can imagine takeup would be very low except amongst a certain subset. Male people are unlikely to want to put themselves through the realities of pregnancy once they realise the toll it takes, except in some extreme circumstances. They'll leave the actual pregnancies to female people in 99% of cases I expect

Would be interesting to see the impact it could all have on abortion laws around the world though.

Men wont like being told no.

another awful thing is that they'll use animals to do much of the experimentation.

Can I hit the beard button?

I was stupid to think this would be about helping women.....

I can imagine takeup would be very low except amongst a certain subset. Male people are unlikely to want to put themselves through the realities of pregnancy once they realise the toll it takes, except in some extreme circumstances. They'll leave the actual pregnancies to female people in 99% of cases I expect.

As usual, follow the money. Other than the crowd funder on their web page, I can find no reference to how they are getting funded. Normally funding agencies are given prominent credit. And half a million quid doesn't go very far in medical research. Either there is someone funding it who doesn't want publicity, or there's not much happening.

What really bothers me is the following.
I work in science, it is tough times financially, so most projects are funded with grants.
The research into stillbirths and miscarriages in this country is still far from adequate. So are conditions that mostly affect women.

Yet, most medical research is aimed at mens, that includes male alopecia, even though you will agree that unfortunately female alopecia in this society is way less accepted and has a lot more impact on a woman's life.

And here we are, spending crazy money and talent on this?

F>|$}* patriarchy

I hope it’s a hoax.

A 25% live birth rate in - I presume - women who meet specific criteria, isn’t an encouraging start to begin experimenting with males.

An entry criteria of 16 is horrific. Even if actual surgery only happens in adulthood, it is wrong to start children on a pathway that could be socially difficult to back away from.

We rarely discuss the vulnerabilities of transgender people, except children, on these boards as we rightly centre women and girls. That doesn’t mean we aren’t concerned for the welfare of those affected by confusion over their identity and/or sexuality.

In this scenario, I’m really worried about the vulnerable people who could be exploited, and for the well-being of any putative babies.