If a girl can't consent to sex, can she consent to pregnancy? Childbirth? An abortion?

Always

I agree, it's applying a criteria in the wrong way. I think the right framework would be to talk about the consent belonging to the parents, which is normal for children who don't have the capacity to make a medical decision. Even where 12 year olds are seen as legally unable to make the decision about medical care, I think in most cases it's considered appropriate for children of that age to have a voice in their medical care.
Medical consent really only devolves to the state under unusual conditions. I don't see why it would be different here.

I think there’s a difference between consenting to sex and consenting to have a child or a termination.

In the first case she has no legal right to consent to sex. Children don’t have that ‘right’ for their own protection.

In the latter case she has no option but to chose between carrying the child or aborting. She has to consent to one or the other. You can’t deny her the right to both. That’s not just a legal or ethical matter, it’s a point of logic.

But it's an ideological position that abortion is only a convenient return to the status quo with no other significance or meaning. I am having a really hard time seeing how some kind of default policy would be based on what is essentially a belief based position.

Spartacus I agree with you that pregnancy, childbirth and parenthood are life changing , absolutely, yes, in the most profound way possible.

But abortion can also be life-changing for some, and it is not helpful to gloss over this, for idealogical (or any other) reason. It's not a cut and dried issue, and we do nobody any favors by cultivating a veil of secrecy around its downsides. Yes, some of the negative feelings that may arise around abortion may be culturally-conditioned, but this does not make them any less real, distressing, and sometimes disabling, to those who suffer them.

Complex issues need to be addressed thoughtfully, rather than swept under the carpet.

Its a thankfully rare situation in which social workers, counsellors, therapists, the whole raft of child services would be made available, and the whole thing regarded as a major child protection issue. In the same way a child not wanting lifesaving surgery would be supported in understanding what was necessary and helped to prepare for and cope with it. I can't see a child simply being 'forced' into a procedure such as an abortion in that way.

Take a look at the court evidence from the Gard case, or from other court cases where a judge has ruled in best interests of the child against the patient or family's choice; it's done with the best possible effort to support people emotionally and to find consensus and to keep good relationships between patient, family and medical staff. The Gard case was exceptional in that all these usual processes failed.

I find the idea of forcing a 12yo to have an abortion because it's better for her in the long term unsettling. But I'm sure there was a 9yo rape victim somewhere (South America? Asia?) And my initial thoughts there were abortion is best. So I think there is an age where Doctors/parents override the girls own thoughts.

And the level of regret can be deep and very distressing. I say this not to judge or persuade anybody against one, as they absolutely are in a lot of cases the right decision. But it does happen.

Sorry, one further thing to say is that a proportion of women do regret their abortion later. The fact that you, or countless others, didn't, doesn't mean that that is the same for everybody. So yes, I do think that abortions should be proceeded with with due caution, to ensure it is indeed the correct decision for those concerned.

I agree with all of your points, FeministCat, which is actually the point I'm making.

No, I absolutely don't think a 12 year old can possibly understand the full ramifications of pregnancy, childbirth or parenthood. There is no way they can make an informed decision on that. But similarly, there is no way they can make an informed choice on abortion.

There is a risk of coercion either way, from parents who may (or may not) be attempting to act in what they think is their daughter's best interests, but may in fact be pushing her into a decision she regrets. To avoid this, it is imperative that the girl makes a fully informed decision, but we are back to the issue of informed consent./autonomy.....

I'm not sure how this circle can be squared, TBH, my point was really that it is not as simple as saying abortion should be the default, as circumstances will vary.

I don't think it makes sense to talk about consent to continue a pregnancy.

But as far as making a default of abortion, that is going to result in forced abortions and I suspect that would be a difficult thing to sell to the general public. There are still many people who believe their are significant ethical implications around abortion and forcibly violating those, even in someone young, is not going to go over well, and for that matter might well affect the young persons mental health significantly.

Tolleshunt

I don’t think either twatty or butter are saying everyone feels the same, but I too disagree with your comment that:

abortion is (not) necessarily any less of a big life-changing event than a pregnancy. Yes, it ends the pregnancy, and superficially life will carry on similarly to before, but the sequelae, both physical and mental, can be profound and life-long.

Sure, can be but do you think that is the usual outcome versus a pregnancy for a 12 or 13 year old? We are not talking an older women who has some experience with growing up, with starting at least to figure out her identity and what she wants in this life. Who is starting to maybe understand what an impact parenting might have on their life, positive or negative.

I have known young teens who wanted babies (and anyone remember the pregnancy pacts in the US?). Do you think when they thought of babies they thought about the serious responsibilities of parenting: of having to put the baby first, or that it might mean saying no to social events, or having to find part time work, and a caregiver? No, everyone I knew at that age who wanted a baby either thought the baby would be a cute accessory or a guarantee of love (for insecurities they were dealing with).

A 12 or 13 year old is also at far greater risk of lifelong physical complications due to their immature bodies from pregnancy and/or childbirth, including permanent pelvic damage. Do you think a 12 or 13 year old understands that they may become fecally incontinent and need a colostomy due to childbirth?

A 12 or 13 may be significantly interrupting their education (which they may never quite get fully back into). Either due to the pregnancy (ie complications from hyperemesis gravidarum, miscarriage risk (bed rest) etc) or because they choose parenting.

A 12 or 23 year old may be pressured to keep the child and become a parent - now for a lifetime which will affect so many of their decisions and even freedom to make those decisions - while they are still a child themselves. That certainly can have a profound and lifelong impact, and keep or start a cycle of poverty.

I had an abortion at 16. Not only can I say that 24 years later I have never regretted that choice, I can say I am so, so grateful at such a young age I made that decision. It “saved my life” in so many ways, mostly in allowing me to be able to pursue education, career, and better my own circumstances. So yes, I suppose the impact of my abortion was profound and lifelong in a very, very positive way.

twatty and butter I'm glad for both of you that you made the right decision. However, you would be wrong to assume that everybody who has had an abortion feels the same. I'm not saying that an abortion would be wrong for any individual, just that it is not automatically true across the board. Individual circumstances, resources, beliefs, emotions etc must be taken into account.

Yes there are a few thirteen year old mothers I think. But from memory twelve is extremely rare. Of course not zero. I hope the girl is OK.

OP you might find reading around Gillick Competence useful, as this was the benchmark of how to assess a child's individual competence to make decisions for a very long time. It has evolved somewhat in recent years but the basic premise is the same.

I have no idea of hospital policy in these cases Marin , maybe an NHS person is around who does or it's researchable on line, but as in the Guard case and others, the hospital will follow the judge's decision on the child's best interests.

For example a 12 year old who is a Jehovah's Witness may refuse consent for a blood transfusion, with the full support of their parents, but if they do this will be referred to court where a judge makes the deciding call on what is the child's best interests and the judge's decision is then followed.

How does a judge force a 12 year old to get a blood transfusion? Sedate them?

Tolleshunt as someone who's had both a termination and a child I can confirm that's just not the case. I thought of my termination often over the years but I know 100% I made the right decision and moved on, there was next to no imapact on my life.

My DD who who I absolutely adore has changed my life beyond recognition and not all of the changes have been positive.

Sorry misread. Ignore

Are you saying you know a pregnant twelve year old :( really hope not

The 12 year old's capacity for consent (which is individual anyway, not all 12 year olds are identical) and views would be taken into account by medical professionals/social services. It wouldn't however be the deciding factor of what action is taken.

For example a 12 year old who is a Jehovah's Witness may refuse consent for a blood transfusion, with the full support of their parents, but if they do this will be referred to court where a judge makes the deciding call on what is the child's best interests and the judge's decision is then followed. Are you wondering whether the child's consent should be wholly respected regardless of outcome? Or is this more metaphysical in to what extent a 12 year old can understand what they are consenting to? (And are you writing a book?)