The feminism argument against surrogacy?

The surrogate isn’t biologically related to the child though, so is it the same as removing mother and child?

If by 'biologically related' you mean genetically related, then yes, that is usually the case. However, it takes some bizarre train of thought to say that the woman who gestated that child for 9 months inside her body, nurtered it from her own body and then pushed it out, is somehow not that child's mother.

Plus,, often the 'intended mother' won't be genetically related to the child either. So according to your logic, she is also not the mother simply because she purchased the child?

I think people should stop trying to police woman’s body’s so much and let woman Male their own decisions.

This is the same argument which is trotted out to justify prostiution, stripping and other uses of female bodies which cater to men. And women's - and men's - bodies are 'policed' in lots of way. We're not allowed to sell our internal organs, we're not allowed to use certain drugs, we're not allowed to walk around naked. Do you believe all of these rules should be done away with too?

@PeachMelba78, well I hope the child feels the same as you when he or she reaches the age when they realise where they came from. I can tell you from the trauma of Ireland's adoption stories, this is not as easy as "oh but the parents I gave my child to were lovely".

@Seaseasea, as you see from my post, our bodies do interact genetically with our children when they are in our womb - it is called epigenetic. Many lifelong diseases are caused by genetic interactions between the woman and her growing baby. So yes, there is a genetic link, of course it does not suit the narrative.

Look up causes of ADHD, causes of Foetal alcohol syndrome, there are many others.

As a surrogate for a gay male couple I can honestly say that they had my needs first at all times, I called all the shots and we have a great friendship.
The child I gave birth to is content with their parents, I am absolutely not their mother nor would I want to be.
I am gay myself so having my own children wasn’t straight-forward either.
I have a good job and I am well paid, I did have my expenses paid which was good as I didn’t want to have to pay for maternity clothes myself.
I am in no way a prostitute or an idiot, I am of sound mind and it was something I wanted to do.

The surrogate isn’t biologically related to the child though, so is it the same as removing mother and child?

The woman is gestating the child in her body which would be subject to the exact same hormonal changes. The baby knows nothing about biology and so it's irrelevant that there is no genetic link.

The mother and child may not be biologically related but the child doesn't know that and the mothers body has made the child not the person who gave the egg.

I’m not a feminist but I can sincerely see ethical problems with it. Although I have less concerns if it’s done altruistically. The issue comes from where money changes hands, in that respect it differs little from organ donation.

Pregnancy can be risky, result in permanent injury and a lifetime of health complications or even death. The idea that those risks are more likely to be shouldered by the poorest in society with the least compressive health coverage if at all is pretty abhorrent to my mind.

I’m also reminded of that Australian couple who got a south East Asian surrogate who ended up with twins, only one was diagnosed with Down’s syndrome and she was instructed to terminate that one and they would proceed with taking the other. The very idea that because they were the ones that were paying thought they could dictate what this women could do with her own body exposes a pretty major ethical problem.

The surrogate isn’t biologically related to the child though, so is it the same as removing mother and child?
I think people should stop trying to police woman’s body’s so much and let woman Male their own decisions.

That is a huge number of children entering the woefully underfunded care system. If people wish to raise a child why not adopt

Do you feel the same way about IVF?

Radio 4 had a programme on last week, Friday I think, stating that in the UK a child is taken into care every 20 minutes. That is a huge number of children entering the woefully underfunded care system. If people wish to raise a child why not adopt? The idea of purchasing a baby and deliberately removing them from their Mother is selfish & in no way puts the childs interests first.

To remove a baby from their mother at birth takes a lot of work from social services and there has to be a strong case that the baby is at risk because it's against the baby's best interest to remove them from their mother.

To plan that in advance just isn't best for the baby who knows who their mother is even if the people paying don't see it that way.

It's so open to exploitation by people with the money who want to commission a child.

What of the baby in all of this?

Surrogacy affects more than just the woman giving birth.

A lot of good points made already.

For me, it reduces poorer women to the status of breeding machines for wealthier men and women. And its purpose is to allow the purchase of children.

Even if you don't oppose it from a feminist perspective, you can oppose it on the grounds of exploitation.

I also have concerns about the child welfare aspects. We're only coming to grips with the fall-out of our adoption processes (I'm Irish and we have a particularly poisoned history in this area). I fear we're storing up similar problems for the future for many surrogate born children.

What troubles me is that isn't it just a different form of the same thing as many jobs? Lots of work involves effectively exchanging use of your body for money

If your client changes their mind, or goes bankrupt, then what happens? If your 'work' is defective, what happens next? If you suffer a miscarriage can you be sued for not producing the results as per the contract?

How is it the same as any other job?

Because not only is it “renting” women’s bodies, it is buying babies. Here only altruistic surrogacy is legal, but that does not mean the system isn’t ripe for abuse. The way I have seen the intended parents treat surrogates is pretty gross too. They will absolutely play nice to their face, but outside of ear shot it is clear they just see them as a means to an end. And the amount of control they want....and it does not always stop at the surrogate. They also want to control the narrative.

I hate how it is always portrayed as a feel
good story, when so many of the stories I have seen are reeking if you look behind the curtain. A gay couple in my city went through a surrogate a couple years ago to get their “long dreamed of” baby. There were some complications and the baby was (sadly) born with medical needs requiring - at least initially - round the clock monitoring and breathing assistance. They had chosen a surrogate in another province and while healthcare paid for all the medical needs, they would not pay to move the baby to a hospital closer to the couple in a timeframe acceptable to them. I saw this couple start a go fund me with their story about parenthood being their “lifelong dream” in order to raise around $15,000 to move the baby. Their go fund me was all woe we can’t afford this money that will allow us to move our baby closer to home. I saw people donating money, for some probably money that they could have been used for their own needs, like groceries for the week. They raised the money. Meanwhile, things not known to the general public but I was aware of was: this is a couple earning $500,000+ a year, and a few months after moving that baby they also bought a million dollar house (where average house price is closer to $375,000). Like I said, controlling the narrative.

While all surrogacy bothers me, I am really particularly bothered in surrogacy by the messages particularly around gay men using surrogates - using women’s bodies - there is often a lot of virtue signalling and talk about how wonderful this couple can get a baby with little thought for the women herself other than she is a means to an end.

My brother and his husband want children, but I will not be impressed at all if they go the surrogacy route. I’ve shared my feelings with him on this before but ultimately I have no idea what they might do. I love my brother, and always will, but I know he is NOT an ally to women, we have had some fierce arguments about abortion rights for example (which he is against as a person who would never be personally affected, whereas I am, and have had one). So I will be fierce at him if he opts to use women’s bodies for his own end - not that I would be surprised when he can’t be bothered to accept women ought to be in control of their own bodies.

Can you genuinely not see the difference between being paid to do work on an oil rig and being paid to grow a baby in your own body? Really?

I am very anti-surrogacy, even the altruistic kind, but I think this is a little unfair. There really are jobs that are more than just a limited agreement that you can leave at any time, or which are extremely dangerous. The most obvious I think being the military.

If it's really as simple as you say, it should be easy to make a distinction to explain it, rather than implying someone asking a sincere question is just dumb.

Hithere12
Slaves couldn’t walk out but absolutely anyone else can walk out of a job. Yes they will probably be skint but they are free to leave.

here's the guy, Tan France ... He sounds so entitled! "And if I want to have children I want to talk about it and nobody can say it’s wrong and get away with it."

I'm finding myself more and more concerned with how people refer to surrogacy, like its an easy way to get a child. One of the men on Queer Eye was talking to another gay man and just said, hey you can have a child! Just find a surrogate. Like it was as simple as going on amazon and finding a female body to rent for 9 months. It was just said with such flippancy, and that's how some people see pregnancy and childbirth, that it could be disconnected from a woman's feelings. So wrong.

But If you have a shitty office job you can tell your wanker of a boss to fuck off and leave the building (you’ll probably be skint but you’ll be ok
If you are selling your baby and at, say, 7mths pregnant what options do you gave if you think your boss is a wanker

I’ve signed work contracts for 6 months meaning if I didn’t finish the contact I could be sued. This is in an office environment, others I know sign year long contracts.

We need to stop infantilising women and let them make their own decisions. There’s a difference between a woman in India being forced into surrogacy vs a woman in the west who wants to do it as a source of income.

Also I was stuck in a job I hated for TWO YEARS. It took me two years to find another one. And no I couldn’t just tell me boss to fuck off I had bills to pay. Most people living in the real world can’t do that.

But If you have a shitty office job you can tell your wanker of a boss to fuck off and leave the building (you’ll probably be skint but you’ll be ok)
If you are selling your baby and at, say, 7mths pregnant what options do you gave if you think your boss is a wanker?

The term “surrogacy/surrogate” makes the woman - the mother- invisible. It removes her from the central role, erasing her motherhood. She’s not even dignified with the title of “birth mother”. She’s a vessel.
That’s a terrible minimisation of women.

Commercial surrogacy is buying/selling another human being. Which is wrong.

Intentionally creating a baby that is to be separated from its mother, is immoral. Nobody has a right to children. Nobody is entitled to have a baby. A baby isn’t an oil rig.

But surely that’s THEIR decision?

No, you are looking at it the wrong way. A woman is entitled to get pregnant and give birth if she decides to. She's not entitled to sell a human being. And other people aren't entitled to commission a child from her and purchase the use of her body.

Can you genuinely not see the difference between being paid to do work on an oil rig and being paid to grow a baby in your own body? Really?

But surely that’s THEIR decision? Maybe they’d rather be pregnant for nine months than work a shitty office job they hate?