make up and 6yo DD - what to do?

Pornography: Men Possessing Women ( correction)

Are you going to read Woman Hating by Andrea Dworkin, Justhadathought, she completely disagrees with you

I've read it, and Pornography: Men Hating Women. Yes, enraging and fire in the belly stuff; wanted to go out and mow down men in my car afterwards, and scowl at them in the street......for several weeks afterwards. Fantastic work! Really profound stuff! Truly!

I didn't really state much in terms of definitive opinion; was just sharing a little bit of context and my own story. some of how i cam to be where i find myself today.

Andrea Dworkin was an abused & prostituted woman. She knew what that looked like first hand, and she described and named it powerfully.
She wrote from her own experience. She was a lesbian, but who loved a man, and spent a life time with him. Hew work is visionary.

But not all of us can or want to live on that edge, in that way - or have been exposed to the extremities of things in the way she was.

We live ordinary lives, with families, partners and friends, and some of us don't mind that much, or feel that compromised about painting our toe nails and wearing a bit of mascara.

I think we all fight our own battles - the one's that matter most to us - or seem most urgent. We can't do it all alone. We still live within a context and a culture. I used to want to be a Nun. which was a symbolic way of expressing the desire to remove myself completely from the world. Devote myself to my 'cause' entirely.

But instead, I've opted for practical realism.

Are you going to read Woman Hating by Andrea Dworkin, Justhadathought, she completely disagrees with you.

why did you have to search up men's and women's lipstick? surely it would have been easier to search up 'lipstick' in general? Most lipsticks are not labeled or put into the women's section, they are put in the makeup section making it gender neutral. I do agree that less women wear makeup than men but it doesn't mean that the products available can't be used by both sexes.

Because makeup is marketed to women to be consumed by women. It's a sexed product.

Makeup marketed to men exists but it's neutral and doesn't require the elaborate face painting that women's makeup promotes. It's also a tiny market. Men in general don't wear makeup. Which is the point of this thread.

Lot of angst here

Yes, too much.

Personally I don't really wear make-up except for some mascara, and a slight touch of tan coloured eye-shadow. No powders, or lip stick or anything similar, and I haven't done any of that since I was 14/15. In those days I was drinking in pubs with my boyfriend and going to clubs ( proof of ID and all that was not a thing then. I even served behind the bar in a pub aged 16).

I don't do manicures, but do love my feet, and paint my toes and have a pedicure now and then. I get my eye brows waxed, and I shave my legs and arm pits. I have short hair with high-lights.

I've lived on peace camps, and in squats, and given speeches at demonstrations; been a hippie at 'healing camps', been a born again Christian; graffitied sex cinemas; and been a hunt saboteur; I had my first child aged 19, and two others by the time I was 28. I had home births. I've read most of the key feminist texts. I've lived a varied life and have developed an independent view on matters, based on personal experience.

I have a highly individualistic daughter, and now a granddaughter - and while I avoid the pink girly thing as much as possible, my granddaughter is attracted to it. I just see it as experimentation - within the cultural context in which we live, and in which she lives.

I went to an all girl school and loved sports, and I'd like that for her too. She's super intelligent and articulate. She loves climbing especially, and she swims like a fish. But someone bought her a barbie ( which I personally hate) and she shows occasional interest in it ( she's 4). I've realised that it's not worth making a fuss about. She's going to have to negotiate the world as she finds it, for herself, as she grows. All we can do is provide a context of security to explore, and to provide role models of independent, intelligent women.

She'll see that a prime minister can wear leopard print kitten heels, big costume jewellery, and lip-stick if they want; and it is not the end of the world.

As a matter of interest I had a look at a men's makeup website, looking for the green lipstick, or any lipstick for that matter. All I could come up with was this:

www.mensmake-up.co.uk/mmuk-man-lip-balm-for-men.html

Quite different from what L'Oreal say, offer for women:

www.loreal-paris.co.uk/products/make-up/lip/lipstick

Anybody who is trying to compare the two is being completely disingenuous.

why did you have to search up men's and women's lipstick? surely it would have been easier to search up 'lipstick' in general? Most lipsticks are not labeled or put into the women's section, they are put in the makeup section making it gender neutral. I do agree that less women wear makeup than men but it doesn't mean that the products available can't be used by both sexes.

I let my daughter wear make up for parties, special occasions etc. I also explain why women are expected to wear make up and men aren't, and that such decisions aren't made in a vacuum due to patriarchal and societal influences.

When she is old enough to understand sexual attraction, I will also be explaining why makeup is used to express youth/health (and therefore fertility) and/or sexual availability as a tool for attracting a mate.

If you can't stand makeup on people, just put it in the art supplies box and use it on paper. It will be used up in an afternoon.

If you hadn't come on and compared being given a make up set to being given a golliwog, and been so patronising towards anyone who disagreed with you, perhaps people may have taken you more seriously.

I think you're me five years in the future. DD's nursery teacher gives them makeup sometimes and it drives me bats. She says it's "just like face painting" but is also very careful to explain that it's "only for the girls." And just. Ffs.

A golly doesn't teach people to be racist but it's symptomatic of a racist system. A doll with brown skin is not a golly, mostly because we've started trying to address racism on a societal level and the brown-skin doll doesn't perpetuate repellent stereotypes. Makeup doesn't teach girls to be second-class, just like a golly doesn't directly teach racism all on its own, but the way we use it is symptomatic of a toxic patriarchal system which we have not made very much progress on addressing on a societal level. That means it's different than the golly case. If men and women can both use makeup, lovely, that's like having a brown dolly, but that doesn't happen where I've lived. Makeup is basically a women thing. Makeup on a systemic level, hand-in-hand with marketing, perpetuates repellent stereotypes about what constitutes looking good.

I like the "it's craft supplies/it's dressing-up, it's not for school just like the dinosaur suit isn't for school" approach. Must remember that.

Lot of angst here.
6 is too young to wear makeup. End of.

Try reading some Simone De Beauvoir; Andrea Dworkin; Germaine Greer.

It's definitely a good idea to read Dworkin on this. Page 116 of Woman Hating, her first feminist book, features a diagram of a woman with almost every external part of her labelled with the beauty standard that particular part is supposed to meet, including eyes requiring mascara, eyeshadow and eyeliner to be acceptable with lips requiring lipstick to meet the same (male) standards. The diagram is titled "Beauty Hurts".

Sheila Jeffrey's Beauty and Misogyny is also very good on the "feminine corvee", the work women have to do to make themselves sexually appealing to men.

OP, you've really hit a nerve here. I'm surprised that people can't tell the difference between a critique of makeup and beauty standards, and a critique of the people (women and girls) who are required to meet those beauty standards.

As a matter of interest I had a look at a men's makeup website, looking for the green lipstick, or any lipstick for that matter. All I could come up with was this:

www.mensmake-up.co.uk/mmuk-man-lip-balm-for-men.html

Quite different from what L'Oreal say, offer for women:

www.loreal-paris.co.uk/products/make-up/lip/lipstick

Anybody who is trying to compare the two is being completely disingenuous.

Bloody hell. I haven't ever worn makeup and I'm nearly 70, but make up is just a toy for children.

I'm a feminism, but not an authoritarian. If you are a feminist you also want to empower your daughter to make her own decisions, including about make up.

I did let my child play with make up, though I didn't let her wear make up outside until she was a teenager and by that time it was up to her.

My dd has also always liked typically feminine things, which I was shocked by as I never did, but liking feminine things doesn't make one any less of a feminist.

What would you do if a relative bought your child a gift that you thought was wholly inappropriate and based on values you disagreed with

If this is the way you feel about it you would have already taken the make up away from your daughter. This whole post has not been about what you should do but has very much been about telling women they are the wrong kind of feminist if they wear make up.

A makeup set, even for someone who despises it, is just not inherently on that level. To compare the two comes across like you are using other people’s pain on an unrelated issue to prop up and validate your argument

That articulates very well what I thought about comparing it to a gollywog.

@64sNewName I agree. If you want to over simplify it boils down to that at a stretch - make up might teach you to hate yourself and that gollys might teach you to hate other people and are part of a culture of those who most definitely hate other people.

Meanwhile I hate this argument. Make up free ladies down own feminism anymore than those of us plastered in Benefit and L'Oréal do. Where's the fecking solidarity ffs.

I decided with my dds it was more important to push good female role models than anything else and teach them women have no limitations due to gender. I celebrate with my dds that our close friends are paramedics, police officers, barrister, nurses, teachers, Wrens, hydrographic designers (), social workers, academic drs, judges, you get the idea.

We talk about women in history lots too and I take them to the polling station and lecture them about votes for women. Teaching and modelling feminism is so important imo

No, you're adding subtext that isn't there.

Hmm, I think it is there.

No, you're adding subtext that isn't there.

No, I'm not. Many people throughout this thread have commented on how you have picked apart people's opinions and don't respect contradicting views, by believing only your view is valid.

DD1 went through a make-up phase at 5yo, she's better at putting on lipstick than me. I tied myself up in knots about it but in the end concluded that as I don't wear makeup, she has a consistent role model to prove it's not necessary and I would treat it like facepaint. Sure enough she lost interest after a couple of weeks.

I was very careful with the language I used, nothing to indicate she was more beautiful with/without makeup, more observation that it made her look different like dressing up does.

I am really uneasy about comparing a gift of make-up to a six-year-old child (which fwiw I would also have hated for my dd at that age, although I really enjoy makeup as an adult) with a gift of a golliwog.

I’m not denying that makeup is problematic as part of the network of oppressive things women have to deal with. But imo a golliwog is a much nastier and potentially more directly, personally hurtful item. I don’t presume to know how it might feel for a black person to be confronted with someone handing your child a golliwog and expected to pretend it’s totally fine, but as a scenario it sounds intensely distressing.

A makeup set, even for someone who despises it, is just not inherently on that level. To compare the two comes across like you are using other people’s pain on an unrelated issue to prop up and validate your argument.

(I am concluding based on the fact that you didn’t mention any personal experience of the golliwog issue when you raised it in your earlier posts, that it’s not something you have personally had to deal with. I could of course be wrong, in which case sorry)

I haven't once said to anyone on this thread I think they're personally wrong for wearing make up or shouldn't wear it.

whilst you haven't explicitly said it, you most definitely have suggested it.