make up and 6yo DD - what to do?

Like Prawn I can remember being scolded and made to feel unwelcome by feminists in the 70s. It stays with you a long time.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be happy about a 6 year old girl being given make up either, and I think you've had some sensible advice. But for me, your concerns - eloquently as you've expressed them - don't explain the disdain that oozes out from some of your posts. I guess you are new to feminism. Pull up a chair, where shall we start... What in hell were you thinking?

It's one thing being high handed with 'a bunch of people' (your words) on the internet, quite another if your daughter grows up to genuinely love make up - as some women do - or if she makes some 'nice but dim' (also your words) friends who love it. Or if she just enjoys winding you up. She certainly know which buttons to push.

I think in a system in which animals are factory farmed and so grossly exploited and abused is profoundly un-feminist

How is that a feminist issue? It is actually an issue which concerns me far more than about 90% of the stuff which is discussed on here. Women can stand up for themselves- animals can't.

I paint my younger brothers (8 and 5) nails, the eldest dyes his hair too but will still go out and be "boyish", do they need to be told they shouldn't go out and play football or play pretend guns as not to conform to the standards? Of course not. So why should our girls be any different?*

Exactly this. Girls are being told they are to actively avoid anything deemed feminine, why is that?

Really, radical feminism is a whole world view; a systemic way of looking at the world - as well as a deconstruction of oppressive patriarchy and the way it operates. Certainly for me. And that includes our approach to the earth and to the other creatures upon it. I think in a system in which animals are factory farmed and so grossly exploited and abused is profoundly un-feminist.

Make -up can become a prison for some; an irrelevance for others; but for others a liberation of sorts. Of course, the beauty 'industry' is exploitative - as are most industries. Attempts at beautifying the body are not, in themselves, profoundly wrong, though. I guess it depends on what the make-up means to the person using it is the crux of the issue.

No response to people’s real concerns about your golliwog analogy, OP?

You’ve gone out of your way to make it clear that you’re not “new to feminism” (by suggesting other posters are) so I am surprised you don’t seem more attuned to why that was problematic.

It does seem dismissive to ignore the point several ppl have addressed, when you’ve spent so much time replying to posts against which you presumably feel better equipped to argue.

So I’m going to power on through my female-socialisation-politeness and say more clearly here now that I think it was deeply racially insensitive, and you ought to take some time to think over how you understand race within the context of your feminism. And I know it’s not the point of your thread. But i think something like that deserves acknowledgement.

Kelly , because to pretend I have anything other than virtual tea to offer would be wrong, but I'd send you strength and support over the internet if I could.

I also agree with everything you said. There are many reasons why people wear make-up.

Society treats women better when they wear make-up.

I understand your concerns, but agree with your point in your op, by taking it away you will probably make it into a bigger thing than it is. I imagine she's seeing it as a toy, it's a gift and she's excited to use it. I like your approach of let her play with it and when the enthusiasm dies, perhaps it's put away for a bit (somewhere hard to find!?)
I had quite strong views on guns, but people buy nerf guns and then they want to go to archery parties, I don't know where to draw the line, but for now I'm not encouraging but allowing when elsewhere.

I don’t think I’d mind too much if my DD wants to wear makeup when she’s that age, but as you have said I will do my best to ensure she doesn’t feel that she HAS to wear makeup at any time.

From what I remember my little sister did the same and it was all part of her ‘dress up’ phase. She elected to dress up as princesses, a fairy, witch, vampire, pirate etc and was around 5 or 6 when she used a kids make up set as a part of that.

She enjoys wearing makeup as an adult but she does this purely because she enjoys it. She has never thought twice about going out without it either. If anybody were to suggest she’s less of a feminist because of that, they would get quite a heated debate from her.

I on the other hand never wore makeup as a kid, I preferred trousers/shorts to skirts from a young age and playing outside to imaginative play. I was often referred to as a ‘Tom-Boy’ by my family. As an adult I do wear makeup occasionally for my own benefit. I don’t feel pressured by society to do so (but before I became a SAHM I do have to admit that I became increasingly frustrated at the number of colleagues who would comment I looked ‘tired’ or ‘ill’ when makeup free at work!) but I usually enjoy it.

Psychologically speaking I know of many reasons women choose to wear makeup, some feel pressured to conform, some don’t but enjoy wearing it as part of their expression of identity, some will take it or leave it depending on how they feel on the day with no strong feelings either way about it. But in my personal life I have never heard a woman say “I hate wearing makeup but do so anyway because I’m supposed to.” or words to that effect.

I have to admit that I have used it as a ‘mask’ occasionally. Last Monday I had to bury my youngest son, who I lost to stillbirth. The hardest thing I have ever had to do, I wore makeup to the funeral because I didn’t want others to see ‘me’ as I am right now - I know that sounds rather odd but I think trying to generalise makeup use as purely a tool of suppression (as some rather extreme feminists do) is a bit narrow minded at times.

Although I classed myself as a feminist I didn't seek out other feminists for decades. This is because I was chucked out of my hometown's feminist group for the crimes of being sexually attractive and for enjoying sex with men. Ever since then I've thought I was not a good enough feminist. It's only in the last few years that I've felt accepted - even welcomed - by my sisters.

OP, your stance reminds me forcefully of the women that scolded me back in the 70s. I suspect a lot of us aren't good enough feminists for you. And I totally disagree.

Actually I did read those posts. I’m not denying there are plenty of women with self esteem issues, who prefer to go out with make up than barefaced, but to say that’s it’s make up casting a spell is absolute shit, sorry.

Comparing a kiddy makeup set to a flipping golliwog doll is all sorts of fucked up for starters.

I don't know what type of feminist you are but the ones I know and including myself actively encourage girls and women to empower themselves in their own way, if that means playing with make up and dressing up or playing in the mud, bare faced, it's still their own choice. We should be encouraging them not implying that if they wear makeup they're conforming to sexist standards.

Women who don't wear makeup can be victims of sexism just as much as a glamour model and what are you going to blame then?
It's almost condoning the belief that a woman who dresses a certain way attracts unwanted attention.

I paint my younger brothers (8 and 5) nails, the eldest dyes his hair too but will still go out and be "boyish", do they need to be told they shouldn't go out and play football or play pretend guns as not to conform to the standards? Of course not. So why should our girls be any different?
You are a part of the problem OP.

If there is no pressure why are 20 yos having botox?

Why does "minimal" makeup include at least 3 or 4 products?

Why are so many women on here afraid of ageing and have mountains of creams and lotions?

Why are we so afraid of wrinkles and laughter lines?

Why does every part of the female body (including the vagina ffs) have products aimed at enhancing,buffing, make it look younger,better,bigger,longer etc?

Why are there perfumes,nail polishes,makeup, hair chalks/extensions aimed at ages 3 and up?

Lass

If women want to spend their money on gunk they are welcome to do so. I personally will never be convinced that it will make me look better; I am convinced it will make me poorer.

No one is denying this to a grown adult.

Just dipped into this again. How young are girls in the UK when they are allowed to go out in makeup?

Someone mentioned ten-year-olds?

Maybe I'm shifting over to your side, OP.

I will never forget the day when my daughter plastered herself, the carpet, the newly bought duvet covers on my expensive face cream that I'd just bought. She did glow and looked much younger than her seven years!

It's a fad, albeit one that introduces chemicals to young skin, though probably on a par with sun screen.

When she gets older she may well choose to spend all her money on cosmetics and clothes or she might just want to save it - my daughter in the end has done the latter.

Do you deny many women feel they can't leave the house without make up? Not all women who use make up, of course. But it's not uncommon

I think feminists get far more worked up about make up than other women- well they would I suppose.

As part of this I think there is a huge exaggeration by feminists of the pressure women are supposed to be under. There is a huge industry selling things which don't work, or not as well as they claim , or only if you use them religiously. I think women waste money on them. I have. Most of us have and the products languish in bags and cupboards.

However so far as resisting the oppression of not being able to go out without makeup a quick glance around any office, shop, train will show most women manage just fine with nothing or a little bit of foundation or lip gloss.

I think it suits the rather patronising agenda of certain feminists to talk up the oppression of women who always wear lots of makeup, as they see it, to make themselves a little bit superior over the vast majority of women who are relaxed about make up.

I'm with you op and I understand your concerns. I agree with pp that discussion - with the aim of developing critical thinking - is valuable, but you can't predict the future or how your dd will react to your values (with them or against them); we don't neatly lift out of our own culture. I think your example of the complex and imperfect compromise of living with pollution is pretty apt.

No idea why there's so much hostility here. Makeup as a tool of oppression (and one way lady tax is applied) seems a pretty standard feminist belief. I'm a lifelong radfem and sometimes wear makeup. I believe feminism and cognitive dissonance go hand in hand.

Haven’t RTFT, but this

I've told her about how if you wear make up every day, it's a bit like it casts a spell on you and you feel you can't go outside without wearing it

is a load of crap!!

This is what the high shelf was invented for. You don’t throw it away, but it lives on the high shelf where it cannot be seen. It needs to be asked for - and sure, you can play with it as long as we’re not leaving the house and you put it on in the bathroom. And then back on the high shelf. They forget it within weeks and it can then fall off the high shelf when you’re cleaning and go in the bin.

I'm with you OP. My DD is ten soon, and has no make-up.
I'm trying to at least give her the chance to get to a bit more maturity to be able to understand that make-up should be a choice, not an obligation.
I see her friends going to parties made up, and the mums falling over themselves to say how pretty and beautiful those girls are.
Those same mums who can't leave the house without make-up for fear of 'scaring the children' tinkly laugh
I'm a grouch and I don't care!
I'd do something similar - rebrand it face paints and it goes in the crafts drawers.