The Times: Scouts earn U-turn badge after scrapping trans policy

That article is awful though "Speaking to some of our volunteers and young people we know that terminology can sometimes be confusing if you’ve never encountered it before."

No that's not the only thing volunteers, parents and young people were concerned about

People spoke to Scouts about their concern over the "complete confidentiality" safeguarding loophole, about the promotion of binding, about the fact that it didn't pay attention to other children's privacy.....

JellySlice it's worth looking at quite how bad it was before they updated www.transgendertrend.com/scout-association-new-transgender-guidance-big-step-forward/

I agree it's still not great but the direction of travel is good and the fact that it exposes how much rubbish Mermaids has got away with putting into orgs guidance because the orgs weren't paying attention.

it turns out to be a lot of pie in the sky

Yes, because it's all planned and is from the top down. We won't stop it.

We just have to keep informing and educating, laws only work if people follow them.

Oh FGS the Scouting Guidance is still awash with Koolaid!

'assigned male at birth', using the (normally sex-segregated) facilities of their choice, asking them what would make them feel comfortable (and ignoring what would make the others feel uncomfortable), not disclosing to parents the presence of a trans-identifying member. No mention of looking after someone wearing a binder.

We were so relieved and so hopeful, but it turns out to be a lot of pie in the sky.

The Yellow Card throughout this has consistently emphasised the need to report any safeguarding concerns. It has never specified what constitutes a safeguarding concern or said anything about trans issues.

You respect a young person's confidentiality by not gossiping about it. This does not prevent you reporting a concern in the appropriate manner and to the appropriate people.

From the guidance.

Reassure the young person that you will not share this personal information with others (including volunteers, members, parents/carers) without their permission, unless you have concerns for their welfare or safety.

I think the wording is fine. It's the same thing teachers get. The first thing we say to a kid is: we will respect your confidentiality but if we think you are at any risk of harm we will have to tell the appropriate person.

I still have concerns around this wording

We’ve also expanded our guidance to support volunteers to give young people the chance to speak with others if they feel this will help, but only if the young person has agreed. Respecting their confidentiality is crucial. This approach enables effective conversations with young people and, where appropriate, carers and parents. We are clear that if you have any child protection concerns leaders must follow our yellow Card safeguarding code of practice

Respecting confidentiality of young people shouldn't ever take precedence over safeguarding.

Scout news from today
scouts.org.uk/news/2019/june/scouts-for-all/

Thankyou

Share token for GCSE biology article on this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3601670-gcse-biology

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scientists-fail-exam-board-for-confusing-sex-and-gender-drxq3q2x6

There is also an article about Edexel changing the term sex to gender in GCSE science exams so that students would better understand the question (and marking them wrong if they give the correct answer ). Anyone got a token?

No doubt there will be a quickly cobbled together vauge nonspecific "trans rights are human rights" letter soon.

Maya - that sharetoken link is taking me to twitter and prompts for sign in. I don’t have an account. (Thank you though.)

Share token
<a class="break-all" href="https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?url=www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-ideology-is-damaging-children-k5nlhwmc8" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">twitter.com/intent/tweet?url=www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-ideology-is-damaging-children-k5nlhwmc8

Thank you to everyone who organised this and signed it- really impressive list and numbers of signatories there, excellent reality- focused points being made (from what I saw in front of paywall.)

I would only add for anyone when referring to chest ‘binding’ (a massively underplaying euphemism) for a general audience, that some Times readers won’t know what’s involved in this.

This is nothing like wearing a tight sports bra- nor like wearing a waist trainer nor Victorian corset. Given the obvious dangers from ‘binding’ of restricting the ribcage and cutting off the blood supply to breast tissue by crushing it and dangers of compressing any area of skin long term-it’s important to qualify ‘binding’ mentions with details of the health impacts wherever possible.

I’m not sure everyone will otherwise know about the permanent damage to breast tissue, skin damage, skeletal issues and the restrictions on doing any kind of heart and lung-exerting exercise while wearing these bearing in mind risk of fainting and of ribs breaking. Future options for breast feeding and having normal healthy breasts are closed off. Yet kids can order these things off the internet and schools allow them to wear them (or don’t feel they have the power to stop it).

We need to urge our MPs to call on the government to change the law in the UK to ban binders and reclassify them as medical devices only available on prescription and with medical advice, supervision and follow up check ups.

There are awful accounts and pictures on the internet of what happens after long term use of chest binders if anyone needs to confirm any of this. The medical dangers of compressing any part of the body long term are well documented in published medical journals. This is not trivial or temporary physical inconvenience- there is nowhere else for breast tissue to move to so the body can’t adapt to accommodate this. this is painful and permanent damage we are talking about. Other types of self harm equipment are not sanctioned in this way for young girls.

I don't think a list of the signators would breach copyright so:
Dr Debbie Hayton, teacher and transsexual campaigner
Dr Heather Brunskell-Evans, philosopher and social theorist
Professor Michele Moore, University of Essex
Professor Richard Byng, University of Plymouth
Julie Bindel, journalist and feminist campaigner
Graham Linehan, writer and director
Lyn Alderson
Lynne Alderson, retired equal opportunities advisor
Dr Sophie Allen, Keele University
Cllr Lynne Anderson, North Lanarkshire Council
Julie Armstrong, parent
Beth Aze, parent
Jonathan Best, former director Queer Up North, writer and activist
Dr Michael Biggs, University of Oxford
Alice Bondi, retired psychotherapist
Laura Briggs, teacher
Rosie Brocklehurst
Cllr Amy Brookes, Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council
Trinia Budge, ForWomenScotland
Cllr Lynne Caffrey, Gateshead Council
Marion Calder, ForWomenScotland
Beatrix Campbell OBE, writer
Dr Damian Clifford, consultant psychiatrist, Cornwall
Samantha Coleman, grandparent
Ruth Conlock, Social Worker
Stephanie Davies-Arai, Transgender Trend
Charlotte Delaney, writer and parent
Cathy Devine, independent researcher and parent
Fay Donnelly, artist and rad fem activist
James Dreyfus, actor
Dr Fiona English, writer, academic and parent
Professor Debbie Epstein, University of Roehampton
Simon Fanshawe, co-founder Stonewall and broadcaster
Maya Forstater, Cub Scout Leader
Professor Rosa Freedman, University of Reading
Jennifer Garnett, parent
Helen Gibson, ex-Labour Councillor and parent
Esther Giles, Labour Party activist and parent
Claire Graham, intersex advocate;
Judith Green, co-founder Woman’s Place UK
Jess Goldie, family & children’s worker and parent
J Gourley, former teacher
Kay Green, publisher
Emma Grover, child safeguarding officer
Kristina Harrison, political campaigner
Lin Harwood, retired social work lecturer
Dr Stephanie Hayton, teacher
Rebecca Heath, teacher and governor
Dr Alicia Hendley, clinical psychologist (retired) and author
Sian Henry, parent and school governor
Louise Hersee
Seven Hex, transsexual blogger
Dr Emma Hilton, University of Manchester
Sarah Honeychurch, University of Glasgow
Dr Chloë Houston, University of Reading
Dr EM, University of Cambridge
Karen Ingala Smith, service provider for women and children subjected to sexual and domestic violence
Bev Jackson, founding member Gay Lib Front
Sarah Jay, feminist campaigner
Kate Jerrold, parent
Diane Jones, retired social policy researcher
Dr Jane Clare Jones, writer and philosopher
Helen Joyce, journalist
Rae Kelcou, intersex advocate and writer
Cllr Leigh Kirton, Gateshead Council
Olly Lambert, documentary filmmaker
Dr Mary Leng, University of York
Amanda Lesiatoi, parent
Lisa Marchiano, Jungian analyst
Lucy Masoud, pupil barrister and trade unionist
Dr Susan Matthews, University of Roehampton
Dr Julie Maxwell, parent, paediatrician and school governor
Lily Maynard, parent and writer
Cllr Caroline McAllister, West Dunbartonshire Council
Joan McAlpine MSP
Dr Ruth McGinity, UCL Institute of Education
Matesa McKeefery, parent
Dr Louise Moody, University of York
Lewis, Lord Moonie
Catherine Muller, parent and grandparent
Dr Kath Murray, University of Edinburgh
Tish Naughton, parent
Stella O’Malley, psychotherapist and writer
Juliet Oosthuysen, parent
Fionne Orlander, transsexual campaigner
Deborah Orr, writer
Anya Palmer, barrister
Gill Parke, business support in children’s social services
Rebecca Pennington, parent
Professor Jo Phoenix, Chair in Criminology, The Open University
Dr Eva Poen, University of Exeter
Sonia Poulton, journalist and broadcaster
Veronica Quilligan, teacher, actor and parent
Mo Quinn, social worker, trade unionist and parent
Gwenan Richards, SOAS, University of London
Julia Diana Robertson, journalist and author
Abigail Rowland, poet and former teacher
Helen Saxby, writer and campaigner
Professor Sophie Scott, UCL
Ruth Serwotka, co-founder Woman’s Place UK;
Susan Sinclair, Women’s Rights Campaigner, Scottish Women
Jennifer Smith, former scout leader and parent
Susan Smith, ForWomenScotland
Tracey Smith, concerned lesbian
Patricia Spencer BEM, retired nurse and NHS board non-executive director
Professor Kathleen Stock, University of Sussex
Professor Judith Suissa, UCL Institute of Education
Professor Alice Sullivan, UCL
Holly Sutherland, Labour Party activist
Kim Thomas, journalist
Professor Selina Todd, University of Oxford
Isabelle Tracy, artist
Dianne Vine, parent and grandparent
Annie Gwillym Walker, community volunteer, parent and grandparent
Helen Watts, former leader at Girlguiding UK
Rod Webb, journalist
Dr Victoria Whitworth, writer and parent
Dr Nicola Williams, Fair Play For Women
Robert Withers, Jungian psychoanalyst
Alison Wren, retired biology teacher, parent and grandparent
Miriam Yagud, retired teacher
Miranda Yardley, accountant
Tania Ziegler, teacher and trade unionist

I can't see it. Who is the letter from?

That letter is paywalled. Anyone have a sharetoken?

Letter in the Sunday Times (no paywall) ,www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/trans-ideology-is-damaging-children-k5nlhwmc8

120 signatures!

A step in the right direction. Well done Maya!

Gregor murray is such a vile man.

My kids have had some lovely scout leaders. I feel sorry for his unit.

Gregor Murray is still a member and that is not right

It was a bit of an eye opener, usually the most controversial thing you can do on there is put a badge on a uniform in the wrong place.

I wonder what policies the traditional Scout groups have about trans etc.

I was always under the impression that the majority were Scout leaders, it's very worrying, so much rampant misogyny.