Risk assessments regarding clothing shop changing rooms

How can they meet your needs in a way that can be consistently and uniformly be applied across their 100s of stores?

They can meet the needs of females by excluding all males from female sex-segregated spaces at all times [except for small male children]. We females then do what we currently do if any male does insert himself into our space against our consent, we alert all other females in that space and report it to the management so that he can be publicly expelled. Management may even call the police. Perhaps we should make it a sex offence in the future for males to insert themselves into female sex segregated spaces against their consent.

My own technique for alerting all other females is to loudly announce that a man is among us. This works very well, I find.

I think my point is that in the case of changing rooms, what you want cannot be done. We would be better off demanding heightened security in unisex changing rooms e.g cameras, guards rather than demanding the space back which as I’ve said in practice cannot feasibly and consistently be done. I actually am a feminist and wholeheartedly agree with many of you but I think what I’m saying is more realistic and achieve able than what you are saying

It's not uncommon for commercial insurance policies to exclude claims for damages as a result of defamation, injurious falsehood and the like, penalties and fines, whereas bodily injury to include psychological injury is (assuming there's no other breach of the policy conditions) generally covered by a PL policy. I wouldn't be surprised if some firms may consider that actually as they would incur bad press or be out of pocket for someone pursuing them for damages due to being misgendered or excluded as a result of their gender identity, it's "safer" to risk a woman being attacked or harassed by another customer as it's likely the policy would actually respond. Of course, the theoretical woman in that scenario is also less likely to start a Twitter thread about her ordeal and be featured looking sad in a Buzzfeed article, and if there's any press attention the media will have to say it was another woman who attacked her, so it really is win/win.

Might be a bit tinfoil hatty but I could see it.

@thruthis I get your point completely, I said that on my pp. But as I said before, what do you want them to actually do? How can they meet your needs in a way that can be consistently and uniformly be applied across their 100s of stores?

My point is, what do you want them to do?

To do a risk assessment and think about all of this for themselves, I would have thought.

It’s impossible to fairly police, and massively subjective, you must acknowledge that not all that self ID look like Mrs Brown

Mrs Brown aside, the overwhelming majority of male to feminine transitioners are very obviously male. It is very possible to monitor this fairly using common sense.

So what is your point DNA? Are you in favour of not questioning or challenging a change in policy because women will get perved at anyway? Because naughty men will always find a way and we can never stop them?

DNAshelicase

Here you are - this is why mixed sex spaces are a risk to women and girls. www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Until creepy men demanded the right to undress, shower etc in front of women and girls, sex segregated spaces worked fairly well and women and girls were empowered to say - 'the men's changing room is over there'.
Now, every Karen White and JY can undress / use their cameras etc in the changing room in front of our 12 years olds and there's nothing we can do about it .

I’m actually not in disagreement with what many of you are saying. I understand the equality act, it is a fact that men pose a sexual threat to women and I agree that a woman is a woman by sex and her genetics.

My point is, what do you want them to do? Because if a man is dressed as a woman then the lines become blurry and if you put someone at a changing room using all of their 5 senses mistakes WILL be made. It’s impossible to fairly police, and massively subjective, you must acknowledge that not all that self ID look like Mrs Brown 😂

so let’s say M&S bite and do an RA for you. You want to know the likelihood of a man dressed as a woman flashing you

Self ID doesn’t require the wearing of dresses.
It just means that any males can access female spaces. A Policy change like this that hasn’t been risk assessed is unusually remiss as it invites a number of negative consequences for both the consumer and the organisation.

You want to know the likelihood of a man dressed as a woman flashing you, is this so you can make an informed choice?

The point is that girls and women do not expose themselves to each other or males.. It is males who do that to females for their male sexual gratification. That is why the sexual offence of exposure exists.

No corporate body or any other organisation should ever facilitate an increased risk of such sexual offence. It renders that corporate body / organisation complicit if it has not assessed any such associated risks, given the Equality Act 2010 and all its legal exemptions to protect females via single sex spaces, services etc.

DNA I'm far too busy and important to stand out front of M&S looking up people's skirts!
On a more serious note, it is a valid point about the general move to online shopping and the death of the high Street. This may just be another nail in the coffin.

I know it Handsoff and I’m fully expecting a voyeur/filming/other predictable incident to be along in the local news at any time.

5, 4, 3, 2 ...

I think Topshop might be in trouble (read a store/s closing)
I've avoided that store too because of not protecting girls and women.

Right okay, so let’s say M&S bite and do an RA for you. You want to know the likelihood of a man dressed as a woman flashing you, is this so you can make an informed choice? Without checking the genitals of each person or blood testing them they cannot guarantee that you won’t be flashed therefore the risk would have to be ‘low’ at the very least.

If it’s a low risk on paper what difference will that make to you? You won’t be using the changing room now will you? It sounds like you’re actually doing this because you want to kick off, rather than be given a document. In which case maybe you should just kick off, or put @margot at the front of store, as her opinion of who is a man sounds like all the proof you need

There was a new Primark opened in Birmingham.a few weeks ago. It's mixed sex changing and I've boycotted it.

Sorry, but what do you propose they actually do? Without getting into the debate of what constitutes as ‘female’ what do you think should be done in practice?

UK law is very clear about what constitutes biological sex [via case law]:

sex = a congruence of chromosomes, gonads and genitals.

So, for females this means XX chromosomes, ovaries and a vulva; for males this means XY chromosomes, testicles and a penis.

UK Equality Act 2010 defines the sexes thus:

man: a male of any age
woman: a female of any age.

Humans can usually distinguish very quickly who is female and who is male via using some of their five senses. [Anyone who is an outlier and becomes wrongly assessed is rare.]

So, we do as we have always done and rely on our instincts and senses to determine who is female or male and exclude appropriately from relevant single-sex spaces.

DNA
What do I expect? For them to keep their policies in line with the Equality Act ideally.

Or be honest and clear about their change in policy and how it affects sex specific provision so women are informed and can consent.

That’s it really.

Thank you for doing this finn
Retail on high streets (as opposed to web) is up the spout if people won’t go in there to shop. They can’t afford to risk alienating women by putting them at risk.

Does anyone know where (if they are) they are obliged to display details of their public liability insurers?

Sorry, but what do you propose they actually do? Without getting into the debate of what constitutes as ‘female’ what do you think should be done in practice? We take a blood sample and karyotype every person dressed in female clothing to confirm their sex before we allow them to try on a blouse in a female space? Do we tell the poor store assistant to turn away anyone that they deem to look too masculine? Or perhaps we should just check the genitals of everyone that comes through the door to be on the safe side.