Risk assessments regarding clothing shop changing rooms

*Show me the peer reviewed evidence that our entire species has an inborn sex detector that has a ‘99.9%’ accuracy

• Erm... OK. But I warn you, the list os long and goes back centuries! And it was even included in an A level Psychology module for years, until they got all po-faced and made it hideously boring!

Look at gait analysis, facial recognition software, the software they use for reconstructing faces from skulls.

Then the whole idea about sexual imprinting, phenotypes, the psychology of sexual atraction, Darwin, the Adaptationist theory, even sociosexuality in times of over population.

ALL of them rely on the human beings ability to recognise, describe and transcribe maleness, femaleness, attractiveness etc.

All animals do it (there's even more gold standard science on animal sexual behaviour) humans are no different.

Google Scholar might be a good place for you to start.

I actually agree with you but this flippant approach does not help the cause at all

What, and your post suggesting cameras and guards in every changing room helps the cause? And what methods do those cameras and guards use to assess customers then that’s so different and more advanced?

Sorry I was thought a MTF transexual could use and had been using female changing rooms

That was a privilege allowed by women being "nice", and not a right.

Jacky Sorry I was thought a MTF transexual could use and had been using female changing rooms?Can someone advise? Have I got that wrong?
(I don't mean a transwoman or non binary male or demi boi or any of the other mermaid genders)

Should have added: it is women's right to challenge, and have those challenges supported by staff, and the clear public knowledge of where the boundaries are and that inappropriate behaviour is challenged that maintains all single sex spaces and always has done. That's all that is needed in most cases.

And, oddly enough, males can be detected without even seeing them. Social media is highly revelatory! Must be something to do with all that male social conditioning.

DNA, you alert my spidey senses!

It's fairly simple. It's been working fine for decades.

State clearly that women's provision is single sex provision. In line with the EA. Provide unisex/gender free/whatever you want to name it facilities for trans people uncomfortable changing with their own sex. And then - since you're saying in every post you fully expect TW to enter these spaces no matter what is done to try to protect women, which actually says a whole lot about what is really going on there and exactly why those protections are needed - women and staff challenge and if necessary call security in cases where a problem arises. And since that problem will involve someone obviously male being there, or male anatomy being flashed, it will be inappropriate behaviour and lack of respect for others that will cause the challenge.

The whole they're coming in whatever you do, you can't stop them without genital checks (ffs), so just give up and stop using the space - no. This is about finding solutions that work for everyone, not just transwomen. This is also not about women rolling over and giving up their spaces and rights for men who happen to want them.

@dna my social media feed is well populated with examples of tw and tm due to many of the groups I'm in/people I follow.

I don't remember the last time I scrolled without reading and mis-sexed one of them.

Must just be lucky I guess?
Just because I don't have an on-demand reference from Nature to prove that humans can tell, doesn't make it less true. We live it every day.

But most changing rooms have lockable doors rather than curtains now? What's the fuss? Why is it different to family changing at the swimming pool? You might want to look at the new "It never happens thread...."

Show me the peer reviewed evidence that our entire species has an inborn sex detector that has a ‘99.9%’ accuracy

Er ... how on earth do you think humanity reproduces our species, sir, if humans are unable to detect who is female or who is male?

But most changing rooms have lockable doors rather than curtains now? What's the fuss? Why is it different to family changing at the swimming pool?

@buzz absolute rubbish. Show me the peer reviewed evidence that our entire species has an inborn sex detector that has a ‘99.9%’ accuracy

I’ll say it again, I actually agree with you but this flippant approach does not help the cause at all

The protective measure is using the EA2010 correctly is it not? Sex and gender reassignment are protected. A post op MTF transexual could use a female changing room but a fetishist like Boldemort could not.

I’m just saying that your proposal can’t effectively work, what I suggested was a protective measure that could be applied without any subjectivity

Personally, I am entirely unconcerned about using subjectivity to assess who is male since that is exactly what these men use when they declare themselves to be "female" and impose themselves on us females against our consent.

Perhaps we females should insist on the police being called every single time, given police have powers to search.

if someone that self IDs looks reasonably feminine

As a species we have the uncanny and innate ability to instinctively establish someone's sex from the briefest of glances.

In that glance we take in dozens of separate facts and our brain, in milliseconds, adds them all up to give us a correct answer 99.9% of the time.

Off the top of my head, things like height, build, jawline, posture, walk, smell, face, hands, feet, voice - plus clothing, context, location, spider sense...

We can just tell (both ways). For the 0.1% where we aren't sure, a second glance usually does it, or the reaction of other people around us etc.

This isn't a new or difficult problem- we've been successfully resolving it for years.

Why would any retailer need to give a member of the public a copy of their risk assessment?

Risk assessments are legally required by the HSE for staff members not for the public. The purpose of a risk assessment is to identify a risk and then look to ways to design that risk out, so seeing their risk assessment may not even show something such as risk to a member of staff from something like this. The risk may have been identified, the number of people quantified and then decided that a solution would be to man the changing rooms. If that was realised as a solution to the risk the risk would be removed from the assessment as it is resolved.

Secondly, the risk assessment for most if not all large retailer will be carried out by an external company, there is no obligation for anyone to hand this to a member of the public. Sorry but you need to understand what you are asking before you bluster unnecessary anger at randomly selected retailers.

I'm voting with my feet too. I've boycotted the high street and have saved a fortune!

What I want the high street to do is create three changing areas:

Male
Female
Unisex (for the above and for anyone else who isn't sure what they are)

If you go into Unisex they you enter knowing it's a mixed sex space and no one is under any illusions of it being single sex.

This would cost money but frankly I don't care as we are talking about wealthy corporations - H&M don't pay a living wage - it's a cost they should bear if they want to keep their customers.

I'd also ask about GRC being that these are issued once transition is complete and Ruth Hunt has said they are not needed for single sex toilets - let's make them relevant.

I personally don't think it makes a difference since the chromosomes and socialisation remain the same but there is a legal requirement to have one it's just no one wants to ask to see it. Why can't we ask to see them? A GRC is a red herring but it might make them think about all the men who aren't trans using a female space for kicks.

I think my point is that in the case of changing rooms, what you want cannot be done.

It is what we always had and want to retain and reinforce because it reduces the risk of pervert males imposing themselves on children and women. Removing this right to privacy and safety inevitably increases the risks of pervert behaviour toward children and women.

So, it can be done and it will be done. The law provides for it.

I think sex segregation is difficult to police if someone that self IDs looks reasonably feminine, I don’t think it’s as black and white obvious as you’re saying so it is very difficult to enforce. Sorry, I’m not trying to be dismissive as I agree that men are a threat to women.

I’m just saying that your proposal can’t effectively work, what I suggested was a protective measure that could be applied without any subjectivity

I'm sure lots of women will vote with their feet when they have experienced this stuff. We have a lot of financial clout these days, not sure if these companies really quite get that. M&S in particular is in trouble and they will deserve what they get if they continue to ignore women for the sake of a few deluded men.

I think my point is that in the case of changing rooms, what you want cannot be done. What cannot be done? M+S cannot change their policy to be in line wth the EA 2010 and say, simply, our changing facilities are single sex facilities.

No gender, no further explanation, just that simple statement. Then women and girls, shop assistants, etc, etc can all go back to challenging hairy bollocked 'woman' without being arrested for hate crimes.

That's it!

DNAshelicase I'd propose they keep the changing rooms single sex...
Worked fine the way it was.
We take a blood sample and karyotype every person dressed in female clothing to confirm their sex before we allow them to try on a blouse in a female space?
This seems very dismissive, like oh it's just a blouse. Do you think think that women shouldn't worry about males being able to use a female space?

I think my point is that in the case of changing rooms, what you want cannot be done.

Why? What is so difficult about sex segregation?