Writing an account of a WPUK meeting now makes you a hateful T**F

Getting your cock and balls surgically turns a man into a eunuch, not a woman.

Exactly so .. and women who think that a castrated man is a woman need to seriously re-evaluate what they think is a woman, because what they are saying is that a woman is a castrated man!

I disagree!

There are males who have had surgery who are in relationships with women, therefore aren't homosexual. Are these people AGP?

Yes, they are autogynephiles. This is why some refer to themselves and / or their partners as being a lesbian.

I have a lot of sympathy for the situation those men find themselves in. I don't put them in the same category as, say, Lily Madigan or Jess Bradley.

I have more sympathy for young girls. And the reason these men are in this position is because of the Lily Madigans and Jess Bradleys, not because of women and girls so why should we give away our rights?

Reporter for Buzzfeed News - says it all really.

There are two types of adult male transitioners: homosexual transsexuals [HSTS] and autogynephiles [AGP] [heterosexual males].

There are males who have had surgery who are in relationships with women, therefore aren't homosexual. Are these peopleAGP?

And then there is a smaller number - the ones who have surgery - who have gender dysphoria. I think if you go to the extent of having your genitals removed you are really serious.

There are two types of adult male transitioners: homosexual transsexuals [HSTS] and autogynephiles [AGP] [heterosexual males].

In the case of AGP heterosexual males it is the autogynephilia that drives the claim to feeling gender dysphoria".

The paragraphs here under the heading "Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria (Adolescent Boys and Men)" explains it well:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Sarah Ditum:
And I agree with her that gender critical feminism needs to absolutely exile the tiny minority that is hostile to trans people.

Hostile to transpeople? Does that mean any of us who don't want to share single sex spaces with transwomen, no matter how nice they are or think they pass, or how much surgery they've had or hormones they've take?

Then count me in as a hostile cunt and ship me off to exile in Badley Fuckit with the rest of the TERFS. I Have boundaries. They're there for a reason. No woman should have to tolerate men in places where they are vulnerable and possibly undressed.

Getting your cock and balls surgically turns a man into a eunuch, not a woman.

I also don’t put someone like Miranda in the same category as someone like LM. Chalk and cheese.
But that difference is impossible to police.

I thought I had read in reporting of violent or sexual crime, that those men were waiting for surgery. I don’t think surgery is any guarantee that someone is a stable, non violent person. The lack of testosterone would have an impact on sex drive, I’d have thought, but the castrati allegedly had illicit sexual relationships.
The Swedish study showed no difference in rates of offending post surgery.
Also agree with above, that sex is the only clear line that be can used to differentiate. Any other line is totally subjective.

I still don't understand why anyone thinks there is anything compelling about the argument that some men genuinely believe they should be in women's spaces and mean them no harm.

"This man honestly believes something that isn't true. It's only fair to let him override your misgivings."

WTF.

But in terms of women's rights, it's not. The generator for women's rights is what women need, not what men need.

I think that's true. I'm just putting forward what I imagine Sarah Ditum or Helen Lewis would say if they were here and answering questions.

I do think there's a distinction. I think there is now a huge number of men calling themselves "trans women" who are doing so purely because they want either to sexually predate on women, or get a kick out of being in women's spaces, or want to take advantage of opportunities designed for women (e.g. women's sports, women's scholarships etc). I think most of us feel the same way about them.

And then there is a smaller number - the ones who have surgery - who have gender dysphoria. I think if you go to the extent of having your genitals removed you are really serious. You are not doing it just because you want the opportunity to be on an all-women's shortlist or you get a sexual kick out of being in women's changing rooms.

But that doesn't mean women have to accommodate that. Women still have the right to their own spaces, their women-only shortlists etc.

I think there is a difficult question of what happens to those men who surgically transition, though. I have a lot of sympathy for the situation those men find themselves in. I don't put them in the same category as, say, Lily Madigan or Jess Bradley.

And men are perfectly happy to revert to the sex differentiation line as and when it suits them.

The brightest, clearest line is sex differentiation. It’s certainly the line males used for millennia to maintain women as property.

I don’t see why women should use any other line now that some males have decided that line keeps THEM from what they want.

Perfectly put BickerinBrattle.

It is all about what men want and how women can facilitate their wants.

What difference doe#it make how genuine a male is?

Are women to be allowed NO space, except in the home, where we can be of the omnipresent male gaze? NO gathering we can have not penetrated by male voices?

The brightest, clearest line is sex differentiation. It’s certainly the line males used for millennia to maintain women as property.

I don’t see why women should use any other line now that some males have decided that line keeps THEM from what they want.

Genuine, I suppose, in the sense that he genuinely believes himself to be a woman.

And again, how do we know who is and who isn't genuine?

To be fair RoyalCorgi, I do understand why people make a distinction. A man transitioning to deliberately predate, or get a sexual kick is, of course, different to men with gender dysphoria.

But in terms of women's rights, it's not. The generator for women's rights is what women need, not what men need.

Neither is gender dysphoria any guarantee that a man will not predate, or be violent, or dominate. There have been several men convicted of violent crime whose defence actually was that they had gender dysphoria.

So when people say they are exactly the same, it means, certainly to me, that in terms of women's rights, it makes no difference.

Women aren't just some dumping ground for men who other men consider wrong. Nor are we a human shield for men who need protection; disabled men, old men, effeminate man, gay men, or men who identify as women.

Not a genuine woman, but genuine in the sense that he's not doing it just to gain access to women's spaces and predate on them, or get a sexual kick out of being in a women's space, or take a job or scholarship that is designed for women. Genuine, I suppose, in the sense that he genuinely believes himself to be a woman.

A belief that they hold which they determine as a right to overpower my belief that they are not a woman and therefore do not have the right to access women's spaces, jobs or scholarships designed for women.

Not a genuine woman, but genuine in the sense that he's not doing it just to gain access to women's spaces and predate on them, or get a sexual kick out of being in a women's space, or take a job or scholarship that is designed for women. Genuine, I suppose, in the sense that he genuinely believes himself to be a woman.

I really (genuinely) puzzled:

-if males use female space and enjoy doing so then?
-if males are driven to transition due to AGP or because they seek to have relationships with 'straight' men? This is about their sexuality/sexual desires.
-if males gain advantages within work, platforms or opportunities by dint of their being a transwoman? What when those platforms might be afforded to women with greater relevent experience or knowledge?

if a male wholeheartedly believes he is a woman then this could only be described as a delusion.

Yes, Spartacus, and UK law makes it clear that it is a false belief because the law acknowledges that it creates a Legal Fiction.

That word, “genuine” is often used as a moral market to distinguish between men who want to be seen as women and will be nice to us, and men who want to be seen as women and will hurt us. We are also supposed to welcome these “genuine” men, feel sorry for them, protect them.

As this might vary through a person’s life, and as we can only tell which category these men fall into retrospectively, this is no help in keeping women safe. Nor is it any help to women who have been victims if male violence, or women from some religious groups.

Genuine, I suppose, in the sense that he genuinely believes himself to be a woman.

And how is this to be measured? On the word of an autogynephilic male?

Anyone who has not yet done so should read the two threads here on Mumsnet written by the Trans Widows:

[1] www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

[2] www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3471122-trans-widows-escape-committee-2-the-trans-widows-strike-back

I have an issue with the term genuine - genuine what? A surgically and hormonally altered man is NOT a woman, it implies that women are just a weaker, less worthy version of men.

Not a genuine woman, but genuine in the sense that he's not doing it just to gain access to women's spaces and predate on them, or get a sexual kick out of being in a women's space, or take a job or scholarship that is designed for women. Genuine, I suppose, in the sense that he genuinely believes himself to be a woman.

Ta rowan

I have an issue with the term genuine - genuine what? A surgically and hormonally altered man is NOT a woman, it implies that women are just a weaker, less worthy version of men.

YY
Boobs and the absence of penis do not a woman make.