Karen Ingala Smith in Parliament now on single sex refuges

Diana James was also quite intimidating when Janet was speaking - for quite long periods just staring fixedatedly at her. I would have been very uncomfortable speaking on a panel where the person sitting next to me was staring at me like that.

It really shows where we are that someone representing Women's Aid seems confused about what women are. If I was techy-minded I would make a meme of that and tweet it everywhere.

I'm quite concerned that a volunteer is being given an equal platform to an experienced CEO. Not that volunteers aren't valuable, but it doesn't seem appropriate in this circumstance.

Especially when this male volunteer was also able to speak as a survivor of DV and described that this violence was perpetrated by 'another woman' (sex unknown)
Where were the women survivors of male violence?

I'm quite concerned that a volunteer is being given an equal platform to an experienced CEO. Not that volunteers aren't valuable, but it doesn't seem appropriate in this circumstance.

Yes, this. Particularly one who has 'skin in the game' from a personal and political perspective too in that they are trans themselves and politically active as such.

Yes, thank you Karen, women like you keep me from losing my hope and sanity.

im just stunned that this is where we are with womens rights. you couldnt make it up.
we knew the rights could be taken away- we didn't know it would be by taking away the word woman itself.
Or that there would be women like Maria Miller playing an instrumental role in the assault on women's rights. Women MPs need to speak up!

I think we should all give thanks that Karen Ingala-Smith represented adult human females in that committee session. I know I do!

Thank you Karen.

im just stunned that this is where we are with womens rights. you couldnt make it up.
we knew the rights could be taken away- we didn't know it would be by taking away the word woman itself.

i know that talking in parliament has s progress but that conversation 'who defines a woman' has enraged me.

I was pleasantly surprised by Sarah Champion. I knew she was good on taking an abolitionist position to prostitution but from what I'd seen from her on GRA previously I wasn't expecting her to be on womens side in this debate.

actually having seen Jess Phillips and Sarah Champion in action I feel marginally more cheerful about the Labour Party subs that leave my bank account each month. I thought they were both asking the right questions.

finished watching now

Here's an instructive 20 second segment:

Sarah Champion: I'm not hearing the voices of the survivors in this
Diana James: A transwoman wants to go into a woman's refuge
Sarah Champion: I'm talking about all people accessing it
Diana James: I'm sorry?

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/0d07ff13-636e-4b51-a946-2877e583dc4c?in=10:46:40&out=10:47:00

And the laughable bit where Diana James and Janet McDermott pretend that it's impossible to define a single sex space. You wonder how they get themselves dressed in the morning when simple things seem to completely escape them

Karen was magnificent though. So calm, so articulate. I thought she was great.

Fantastic that this has even happened, debate needs to happen and light be shone on the TRAs lack of argument - besides "my male born supremacy and feelings must be placed above all else"

Karen, Sarah and Jess were welcome contributions but god that was frustrating to listen to.

‘ what is single sex’ ummm what?? Who is that red haired person to speak for ‘young feminists’?!? You can’t make statements about what millions of young people think without saying where exactly that comes from. A survey? What? My 17 year old does NOT believe sex is fluid and has no issue understanding the difference between female and male, nor do any of her friends. I think framing the discussion that way, as a debate between older and younger feminists, which Janet also did, is utterly reprehensible and completely inaccurate. Jess, Sarah and Karen are all younger, based purely on looking at everyone in that room, than Maria, Diana and Janet & they didn’t seem to agree that sex is hard to determine or irrelevant or ‘fluid’, they seem clear that a woman is an adult human female.

Janet saying 'I don't know if we've backed ourselves into a corner...'

Is Maria Miller really that dim, or is she just pretending to not understand because she is so entrenched in her TWAW position?

Its a good question.

Janice Turner raised this and other issues with Maria Miller MP (chair of Women's & Equalities committee) though in July 2017:

(extract)
"The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency." (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

critique by Professor Kathleen Stock of the Women's & Equalities Inquiry led by Maria Miller:
medium.com/@kathleenstock/womens-place-talk-full-text-house-of-lords-oct-10th-2018-b1f3d70c4559

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report

Important Fairplay for Women report published last year:

"SUPPORTING WOMEN IN
DOMESTIC AND SEXUAL
VIOLENCE SERVICES
Giving a voice to silenced women:
evidence from professionals and survivors"

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf

Also I won't post link as I know it's not allowed but Nia have an appeal at the moment - it's on their twitter and fb

I'm quite concerned that a volunteer is being given an equal platform to an experienced CEO. Not that volunteers aren't valuable, but it doesn't seem appropriate in this circumstance.

Brava, Karen.

Is Maria Miller really that dim, or is she just pretending to not understand because she is so entrenched in her TWAW position?
In January, she tried to blame others for her own failings and urged ministers to be "clear that there is no threat to single-sex services", but she doesn't seem to like it when someone who works in the sector spells out the threat and asks for clarity.

It will be very difficult to ignore the powerful points made by KIS

Maria Miller was visibly put off her stroke when KIS's dismantled

• the biased and loaded survey carried out by Women's Aid
• fellow panellists' confidence in being able to carry out a robust risk assessments, and exclude individuals, when someome turns up on a refuge's doorstep or makes the first phonecall.

I think MM was relying on the survey and the supposed ability of front-line staff being able to make decisions about which men would be allowed access and which ones wouldn't.

I noticed that KIS never used the word 'transwoman'. They were 'trans', 'transgender' or 'trans identified'. She elaborated on the different kinds of men who present as trans - and I think that's the first time that the Committee has been formally informed about the ridiculousness of seeing transwomen as women.

Top job, Karen!

Although not directly related to this issue, I thought this comment on twitter was excellent. Put it out there in plain sight.

its not human
@Germainewasrig1

We should call their fucking bluff at the same time. And do men welcome here signs outside all female provision. We need to make it obvious to the public where this is going.

I never thought I'd live through a time when women have to spell out the need for women only refuges and that it's impossible to change sex to MPs.

Although MM incredibly patronising at the end about ppl outside the room paying heed to the fact that reasonable debate is possible...

What does mm think she is debating,the need for women's refuges?

Boils down to 'people who won't obey should be denied services and excluded as a punishment'. It's being danced all around, but this is in fact what is being mooted. Just spot the love and inclusion and intersectionality and tolerance and equality going on in that bit of fascism.

Racist: If BME women are allowed in women's services it goes to show that men should be allowed in too. And racist terms of abuse are fine to use against women if they stand up for women's rights. And people from religions and cultures that preclude sharing spaces with males regardless of how they identify should either abandon their religion and culture or accept they deserve all they get.

Disablist: those not able to manage the cognitive distortions and social lies involved, who need single sex carers for situations of privacy and dignity and who need private spaces for toileting etc because of need don't matter. People not on message don't deserve provision, services or consideration. Rape and sexual assault survivors, DV survivors, people with mental health barriers, deal or lose your services and provisions.

Homophobic: women are never entitled to own a sexuality that denies people with penises access to their bodies on demand. Get with the penis or take the consequences: if you're lesbian, get on the conversion therapy and get over it.

Classist: those from backgrounds and education and histories that mean they are unable to relate to all this and have far more pressing, basic needs to be met, tough. Comply, or lose your provisions and services.

I could go on.

Bravo Karen, this needs breaking down over. And over. And over. The extent of the brain washing then becomes very apparent. Sane people cannot look at the above list and think it's far more important to support this agenda than look for an answer that is actually inclusive and looks at meeting all needs, reasonable adjustments.

Why are they talking about BME women as if BME women subsector of Women's Refuges is on a par with allowing male bodies into them?! SO infuriating and racist!!

It is.
Its commonly used by those espousing pomo queer theory/TRA propaganda/appropriating women's experiences.

Why are they talking about BME women as if BME women subsector of Women's Refuges is on a par with allowing male bodies into them?! SO infuriating and racist!!

Why does Janet keep giggling? How is this in any way a funny thing to talk about?

i switched it off in a rage when i heard two of the panel struggling to define what a woman is and 'who gets to define...'

karen was great though-