Network Autism thinks gender id develops in foetus (title edited by MNHQ)

Yes AncientLights most o the studies I've been reading are based on intersex people, especially women with C-CAH. The research goes "blah blah blah high testosterone blah blah blah liked playing with trucks blah blah blah raised as a girl so can't be about socialisation" then right at the end it goes "of course many of these girls had masculinised genitalia, so that may be a confounding factor re: socialisation". Like, yeh you don't say!

Relevant is this sad comment in the Lancet

"much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue.
Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness"

Going back to some comments a few hours back, how does anyone know if a fetus has been subjected to high/low or whatever levels of testosterone in utero?

It's not routinely measured - why would it be? If it were measured, I can only think that would involve a needle being passed into the uterus to draw off amniotic fluid for analysis and this would carry a risk of miscarriage. So why would you do that? And if the hormone content of amniotic fluid is measured as a result of some problem or abnormality, then the higher levels may be a result of the problem and wouldn't exist otherwise so couldn't be extrapolated to a wider population group.

We're still not seen as fully human by most people I think

Yup

I know some autistic people like this: they think by virtue of being autistic their views represent those of all autistic people, and that is enough for them to feel confident in presenting themselves as experts. There is no arguing with them. If you try then, as they consider their view to represent all autistic people, you must be criticising them all ergo being disabilist. I presumed it was their autism which made them think this way.

Most autistic people I know are aware that there are a range of views, experiences and understandings amongst people with autism.

I fell down that rabbit hole a few months back and realised I have been half a dozen different 'identities during my life when I always thought I was plain old boring.

Even now in my old age as a happy asexual, I still have a flag!

What is with this obsession with putting everyone in boxes?

Maybe that is one of the reasons the autistic community find the identity rubbish so appealing?

Jesus, I've just googled 'demi sexual' and fallen down a rabbit hole. It even has its own flag! So if you were 'demi sexual', you would be part of LGBT? Am I just old, or is it just all batshit? What is with this obsession with putting everyone in boxes? It's just normal human behaviour they are describing. Totally normal.

I agree with the previous poster who says that this is just normal teenage angst around identity and the need to belong to something, but it seems to be spilling out everywhere.

I know this whole thing really isn't funny, but I am chuckling at the 'demi sexual' thing. I mean, really?!

The NHS pages on Gender Dysphoria are shameful. Linking specific hormonal abnormalities to GD by putting information on the same page when there is NO evidence of a link between them is outrageous.

I despair of the NAS. Autistic people deserve to be supported in how they perceive themselves. But being surgically and chemically "corrected" leads to sterilisation and unknown long term health consequences. Surely every effort should be directed at finding ways of supporting autistic people who are "gender diverse" that avoids this?

“The person who did that presentation is autistic and they became distressed when questioned about their content.

I think the person who questioned the content is also autistic.”

So - an autistic person can’t call out the sexism and homophobia of another autistic person lest they get in trouble for disablist hate speech. Am I right?

Reminds me of the time someone tried to take Miranda Yardley to court for transphobia.

Woo nonsense. Shocking really that so many charities and such are falling for this nonsense. Thousands spent getting training sessions by pressure groups. Then spounting unscientific nonsense as if its fact.

I agree Kat.

Thanks thingy I will go look.

I think if they are vulnerable they should never have been put in a position where they are presenting and giving facts "as an expert". It's almost universal to question and discuss after a presentation, both in person and on Twitter.

I think NAS really need to have words with the network.

Is ‘not being attracted to someone until you know them well’ considered so special it now needs an entire orientation to itself?

It's crazy isn't it. I met a woman a few years ago who told me she was demi-sexual and that that meant although she might find people attractive, she only felt comfortable sleeping with people she'd formed an emotional connection to. She said it like this was a rare and unique thing to feel. I just thought wtf, that's almost everyone I know. That's just normal?!

Does this mean everyone not ‘demisexual’ is expected to drop their knickers the moment they meet?

That's what pisses me off most about this Tumblr science, is it demands as it's foil the notion that everyone else is this 2 dimensional emotionally vacuous walking stereotype. In order for them to be super duper special everyone has to be "cis-het" which in women seems to mean "princess barbie who sleeps with anyone" and in men seems to be "GI Joe hunter gatherer". And we're told that the vast majority are like this, with only a small marginalised group being cool enough to have a range of personality traits.

I honestly think it's driven (from the bottom anyway) by kids spending too much time online, esp on Tumblr, and not enough time engaging with a variety of real people in the real world. I read a story on r/detrans a while back from a former transwoman who said his dysphoria had been driven by seeing beautiful actresses and fashion models and wanting to be like them. He said it went away after he spent more time around regular women and realised that they come in all shapes and sizes and don't all think or act the same. It was really sad that he'd reached adulthood without realising that. We're still not seen as fully human by most people I think.

Regarding Greta - I imagine she will agree with the Deep Green Resistance who are gender critical.

This should have been handed out to all contributors before attending the conference and a signature obtained that all had read and understood the contents.

A gendered world creates a gendered brain.

The comments about non verbal children is tantamount to child abuse.

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

What the fucking fuckery fresh new hell is this????

Katvon The person who did that presentation is autistic and they became distressed when questioned about their content.

I think the person who questioned the content is also autistic.

For clarification, does the term ‘prenatal hormones’ refer to androgens/oestrogen's produced by the foetus, or by the mother/carbon-based uterus-bearing reproductive unit?

By the mother, if I read it correctly. But it was 2am so I'll read it again more closely later.

Katvon The person who did that presentation is autistic and they became distressed when questioned about their content. As they are obviously vulnerable it is almost impossible to challenge anything without being accused of bullying (and worse). They have tweeted about the event if you are interested.

The other things that appear to have been challenged on the day (that came from different contributors) were;

The definition used of Lesbian : A woman (or woman-aligned person) who is attracted to other women (or women-aligned person)

The use of the genderbread person

And intersex people being used to demonstrate that sex is not binary.

I linked to this slide on another thread. It is a satirical graphic designed to highlight unnecessary surgical interventions on intersex children.

This appears to have been used at the conference by a Doctoral Research Fellow in a presentation that gave an overview of the scientific literature on the formation of gender identity.

Some of the stuff being peddled to a vulnerable minority really does terrify me and being unable to question anything because it comes from the same vulnerable minority terrifies me even more. If I were the parent of an autistic child/young adult, I would do everything in my power to prevent them coming into contact with such twaddle.

Doesn’t this go against the very basic idea that if you meet one asd person, you have met one asd person. Meaning that not all people with asd can fit into a neat little box of what we believe them to be.

I have had a chat with my DS (that has asd) about what it feels like to be attracted to someone and it is such a vague concept for someone that deals in black and white.

Plus there is the sensory and loss of control element. If attraction and love mean losing control and strange feelings, I am pretty sure he will say no thank you to that.

DS will be ‘attracted’ to people who share his special interests but don’t bother him with conversation. Is this even ‘attraction’ in the same sense though? It is all so confusing as a parent so god knows what DS will make of it all.

DS is not Demi-anything. How can these statements be just bandied about as though they are truth? To make throw these things around is really dangerous for children that are susceptible and easily influenced.

An autism support group I’ve found helpful over the last few years has completely succumbed. Autistic people are said to be less susceptible to stereotyping and more likely to already be outsiders, which somehow translates to very likely to know from a young age that they are transgender.

This is a group run by autistic women originally set up to support people to parent autistic girls. Now there isn’t consensus about what makes someone a girl...

It’s very upsetting.

What fresh hell is this demisexual label? How the fuck does that need a special term?

And the NAS and Network Autism - I have no words for them that wouldn't invoke the banhammer.

Is ‘not being attracted to someone until you know them well’ considered so special it now needs an entire orientation to itself?

What the fuck?

Does this mean everyone not ‘demisexual’ is expected to drop their knickers the moment they meet?

There are many serious questions that need to be asked about this.

This is a professional body sharing completely unsubstantiated nonsense.

Here I have example b.

The speaker actually admits it's totally anecdotal. LOTS OF NON AUTISTIC PEOPLE FEEL THIS WAY! It's a totally NORMAL way to feel. It's not different at all. FFS.

Do they know what ‘gender’ is?

Are they actually talking about personality traits which may or may not be apparent in the child as they develop, depending on family, social and environmental influences?