Harry the Owl

I guess we’re going to disagree on this one, R0. Some of us are single issue, for others it’s indivisible from a wider picture.

FWIW I think Sargon is a twat, and I will always defend his right to be one.

There are very definitely loads of people supporting free speech, rather than Feminism. People who even disagree with feminism (and therefore with a lot of what Harry says, but defend his right to say it.)

I saw several people donate to Maya's thing with similar comments. Not agreeing with her views but wanting her to have the right to express them.

To me the bigger picture comes down to the saying, "I don't agree with what you say but respect your right to say it."

They certainly aren’t interested in co-opting feminism or positing themselves as saviours of vulnerable women, at least nowhere that I’ve seen. If there are men doing this, absolutely we need to call them out/point and laugh.

They are coopting the efforts & focus to promote a freespeech agenda whereby for example Carl Benjamin / Sargon of Akkad seeks to justify his sexism, misogyny and abuse of women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3580450-I-wouldnt-even-rape-you-UKIP-MP-Carl-benjamin-unapologetic

Just as TRAs successfully coopted feminism, gay, disability, civil rights etc so too are there some males (who may identify as libertarian/freespeechers) who will seek to co-opt the efforts of radical/gender critical feminists standing up for women's rights and Safeguarding.

See also those advocating for conservative religious ideologies which will similarly be to the detriment of women. children & vulnerable adults.

The bigger picture is important.

Maybe, but that’s not what I’m seeing. Probably because they’re not coming at it from a ‘centering the needs of...’ perspective (far too touchy feely) but one of truth and individual liberty. They certainly aren’t interested in co-opting feminism or positing themselves as saviours of vulnerable women, at least nowhere that I’ve seen. If there are men doing this, absolutely we need to call them out/point and laugh.

I do think the OP has done Harry a favour. This thread is close to the top of this very famous board and there are some very good discussions about the nuances of free speech.

The vast majority of MN members post anonymously.

Those who use their real name have usually done so because they have or want to amplify a public profile.

I am posting under a new name/anon because there is a history of threats.

Harry posts under his own name, which allows you to dig into his background and then harass him about not being good enough for his own campaign.

Do you not even understand what this is about? The reason you can't post under your own name because of threats is what the campaign is about in the first place.

Everyone should have the right to an opinion in their own name, even if other people disagree with it.

It’s good to see a bit more acceptance that not everyone comes at this issue from a radfem perspective. Its not just Sargon talking about it - seems to be the topic of the day all over the libertarian blogosphere, although you wouldn’t know it if you only look at radfem sources.

IMO - this is an extremely good thing, as it’s a basic free speech issue and is very relatable to people who may know nothing about the trans debate but don’t like being told what opinions they can and cannot hold.

Those who centre the needs of women, children & vulnerable adults should be very cautious. The dynamics of Power & abuse of power are complex.

Just as TRAs successfully coopted feminism, gay, disability, civil rights etc so too are there some males (who may identify as libertarian/freespeechers) who will seek to co-opt the efforts of radical/gender critical feminists standing up for women's rights and Safeguarding.

Who would I prefer to listen to?

Someone who spoke honestly, was prepared to hear others and to think independently, and would occasionally come back and admit they got it wrong.

Or someone who parrots a given line (TWAW for example) and insults rather than debates if contradicted.

Or more simply. A discussion in a pub over a pint. Harry or Posie would be far more interesting than either Lily or Harrop. Even if we had to agree to disagree.

Over 14,000 now - that's 600 in 3 hours.

It’s good to see a bit more acceptance that not everyone comes at this issue from a radfem perspective. Its not just Sargon talking about it - seems to be the topic of the day all over the libertarian blogosphere, although you wouldn’t know it if you only look at radfem sources.

IMO - this is an extremely good thing, as it’s a basic free speech issue and is very relatable to people who may know nothing about the trans debate but don’t like being told what opinions they can and cannot hold.

Let's hope your hands are squeaky clean before putting your neck on the line for freedom.

Guidelines need to be addressed and not just snuck in. Harry is trying to highlight and tackle this, the way some of the TRA's are going for Harry is very telling, they're worried.

Needmoresleep

It would seem we have a few things in common, and have experienced things which few, English people have.
I think I said on another thread, that if you made up a questionaire based on politics, religion, topical subjects and gave it to twenty people, you wouldn't get two people answering the same way.
With regard to Harry, I would rather concentrate in what he is doing now, which in my opinion is really important work, and to be honest I reckon everyone has the odd "skeleton in the cupboard" if they go back far enough.

To put this another way, many of us who have arrived at a position of opposing the gender identity ideology have done so as a result of looking at what we previously believed and deciding that we'd actually been wrong.

Therefore, we should welcome anyone else arriving who says "you know, those views I had years ago, well, I don't have them now". Let's leave to others the need to have been born with the "right" set of views that are never to be changed.

well it reminded me to go to the faircop.org website yesterday and have a look around.

that got me to the crowd justice page, where I made a donation.

this is so, so important. what's next? a visit from the police because you support scottish independence? Or campaign peacefully for the closure of lap dancing clubs? when the police are trying to police what people think, it really could be anyone next.

You would think, wouldn't you, that if you disagreed with someone, it would be quicker to draw up some cogent arguments than to trawl through Twitter feeds from way back when.

I'm pleased to see people not taking the OP seriously. People who pop up demanding that we start infighting to preserve our ideological purity make me very tired.

We can't start saying one persons free speech is ok and another's is wrong or it becomes a bit of a joke.

Exactly. And people who are saying that, like the OP, are therefore not in favour of free speech.

And despite the proliferation of the hashtag NoDebate, few people actually admit out loud that they're not in favour of free speech when challenged.

Which is why, to me, this campaign is so important. Irrespective of the personal views of the people involved (not that I am of a mind to diss Harry over those tweets - someone's trying to smear him, which is something far more reprehensible).

Was talking to dh this morning about realising that there's no point being tribal, when my tribe (Labour) has thrown me under the bus. So time to accept I can work with people when we only agree on one thing.

He was quite amused and reminded me we'd had a similar conversation about ten years ago when I'd pretty much ripped him a new one for suggesting the same thing.

Have apologised retrospectively for being a smug self righteous cow

Yes **datun, look how many mentions LM has got on Maya's nice things 😂😂😂

People donate in protest against as well as in support of. Free speech is important to a much wider demographic than feminism so will attract support from all sorts of people. We can't start saying one persons free speech is ok and another's is wrong or it becomes a bit of a joke.

Strange days. As pp have said, ultimately this is all about letting the courts decide.

Datun, you could be right. There seems to be a very confusing row/pile on going on, which is making Rose of Dawn quite cross. Perfectly possible this is some sort of attempt to divide and rule. Perhaps even our OP?!

There are very definitely loads of people supporting free speech, rather than Feminism. People who even disagree with feminism (and therefore with a lot of what Harry says, but defend his right to say it.)

I can only see Sargon mentioned once? It could be anyone. People donate in others' names to make a point.