When we had women-only spaces: A nostalgia thread

A lot of women's provision has fallen victim to something akin/allied to institutional/regulatory capture, so what were independent, often radical (in terms of values and delivery) services became reliant on state support which came with increasing conditions. When I started working in the voluntary sector in the 80s it was all about values, now it's all about competencies and targets.

Yes, how would we stop this happening next time round?

I loved my girls' school and all-women college.

There is a certain element of truth in the idea that we lost some of the ability to defend women's only spaces through gaining access to men's spaces - I remember when the last of the all-men's colleges went mixed, one of our dons saying sadly "that does make it harder to defend the existence of all women's colleges."

Of course what that left out was the power imbalance, and the fact that all men's environments act to perpetuate sexism in society at large, whereas typically all women's environments arise out of a need to carve out a tiny space where women can grow and thrive away from the over-arching pressures of sexism.

Going back to the university example, when the men's colleges went "mixed" only a tiny handful reached 50:50; most took a token handful of women. Meanwhile, the women's colleges took 50:50 (and typically even higher proportions at JRF/fellow level - particularly in STEM subjects).

If you want to have women only spaces of that kind, you have to change how people think of them. Well and good, except a lot of feminist have tended to be very suspicious of men only spaces, you see it here and even in this thread. And arguably for good reason. But you are not going to get people supporting women only spaces and seeing their value without them also seeing the value of men only spaces.

No, I don't think that's necessary. All you need is enough women who want to get together in women's space and the money and energy to set something up.

You can form a club or society (association) that's only open to people with any single protected characteristic (except if the PC is race you're not allowed to base that on skin colour). You don't have to demonstrate proportionate means or legitimate aim with associations. There are lots of men's clubs. They are perfectly legal.

Oh yes!

The City baths turkish baths in Newcastle; loved many a nice hot steam, massages, jacuzzis etc with friends or on my own. not sure what will happen when they reopen.

Ooh I was at that glasto and saw Portis head!

We clearly accepted smoking singers then; how times have changed!

Not many fully female spaces tbh but I must say working in a very almost completely female colleague work environment all my life has definitely helped my confidence.

Happens so quickly doesn't it?
'What about the male transpeople, what about the men?'

You shouldn't be so eager to hear things you can get ticked off about.

It was suggested, by several people, that at least part of the reason for the disappearance of these kinds of spaces - not just changing rooms and such, but social spaces, comes from the effort to discredit men only spaces. That effort made it difficult to justify similar women only spaces, especially ones that existed mainly for social reasons. So much so that many younger people have little experiences of what they can be like, and find the idea inherently discriminatory.

That's a reasonable point of view, it's not all about men, it's about how the population at large thinks about same sex spaces. You can't separate that sense people have of how they should function, whether they are fair, from the existence of women only spaces.

If you want to have women only spaces of that kind, you have to change how people think of them. Well and good, except a lot of feminist have tended to be very suspicious of men only spaces, you see it here and even in this thread. And arguably for good reason. But you are not going to get people supporting women only spaces and seeing their value without them also seeing the value of men only spaces.

So people have to think very carefully about what they want, what the consequences might be, how they might avoid bad consequences while allowing for good outcome, or if that is even possible.

If your thinking is so narrow you can't even think about how women's spaces fit into the wider picture, you are going to have to get used to nostalgia.

Happens so quickly doesn't it?
'What about the male transpeople, what about the men?'

Agreed - I am early 30s and have grown up with the prevailing impression that it’s discriminatory/paranoid to segregate by sex, and I have told myself I could not possibly be feeling discomfort about shared facilities. Have since un-learned quite a bit.

Right, me too for the most part.

What I am thinking though, is that if we would like to reclaim some of the possibility of that kind of exclusive female culture, we will also have to come to terms with the idea of an exclusive male culture. I know some people would say that it's not necessary for reasons relating to power, but I think that's unjust. Just like women should be able to enjoy women's company and spaces, I think men enjoy male spaces where they don't have to think about being in front of women or relating to women in a different way than they would relate to other men.

What I wonder is how we would deal ith and regulate such things so that they don't become a problem. And how to deal with people who don't like it because they don't like the idea of being excluded.

Some of the bars just went bust. I remember the Glass Bar actually asking for donations, as it wasn't making any money. I've certainly met many a lesbian who would socialise in a bar and drink tap water.
I'm sure it won't be long before someone accuses me of being exclusionary or insensitive to the social needs of someone struggling with austerity etc etc but honestly - I knew plenty of lesbians like that.
It wasn't the majority of the women I knew, but that might be because I preferred not to hang out with the tap water drinkers. They'd go to a poetry reading or a book group in a bar etc and not contribute a penny.
Gay men spent money. They might have had poorly paid jobs but they went out and spent money.
(Now they just go on Grindr for free!)

hmmmmmmmm ....

This has got me thinking not just about groups we have lost but how memories are different.

Women only spaces / groups were not that contraversial initially as men perceived it to be women just wanting to be like them!

Consciousness raising groups which basically fuelled the rise of WLM were dismissed as gossip - little did men know!

National Women's Liberation Conferences - although the Men Against Sexism Group ran the creches - and sad to say some trans women did attend or at least came to the saturday night social, but most of us thought it was just a tiny minority who we could just ignore. (It was actually what appeared to be their link or parallel organising with the pro paedophile groups that caused more concern.)

Not forgetting the NCCL (now Liberty) wouldn't support women only groups attempting to get legal status as they said it was a discriminatory practice. (But then they did seem to support PIE)

Shrew (a magazine that rotated among different women's groups), Women's Liberation Newsletter, International Women's Day marches (reclaimed from the Unions who where hurt and surprised and as one said, "try not to think of me as a man but as a trade unionist"!) Later WIRES.

Spare Rib, Outwrite, Mukti, Catcall, Women's Report. Onlywomen Press, Women's Press, Virago. See Red Women's Workshop.

Any number of women's centre, London Women's Liberation Workshop, South London Women's Centre, Kingsgate Women's Centre, AWP. Women's squats.

And it seemed any number of local conferences or national conference on shared issues, eg education or Lesbian. None of which has funding, never had platforms with women sitting passively in rows, but were based on non hierarchal organising where ideas (and from the Lesbian Conference a WLM Demand) and resolutions came out of shared working.

One of the first women's group to be a casualty of trans entryism was the Matriarchal Study Group.

The big assualt on women only was when groups started thinking about applying for funding. The anarachists warned us it would end in tears.

Coupled with the backlash against Women's Liberation that started in the media.

And the growth in universities of queer analysis over feminist analysis so that women's studies became gender studies, and as we now know the infiltration of ideology through changing the meaning of words ie when sex was conflated with gender and prostitution became sex work.

Oops!

lived in an all-women college

I married and had a family straight our of university in the late 60s, so never had the chance to socialise in the kind of space mention in the OP. However I'd loved in an all-women college at university which I loved and which enabled me to gain a lot of social confidence after a difficult time at my mixed grammar school.

Nowadays in my 70s I still enjoy all-women groups such as the knitting group I go to every week. Not that men are specifically excluded, but they just don't come. The whole atmosphere of an all-female group is quite different from a mixed one and I find it so liberating and enjoyable. We talk about absolutely everything and laugh a lot.

Agreed - I am early 30s and have grown up with the prevailing impression that it’s discriminatory/paranoid to segregate by sex, and I have told myself I could not possibly be feeling discomfort about shared facilities.

Have since un-learned quite a bit.

I am in one resolutely all female org, mainly involving older women, which I won’t name here in case of a TRA pile-on. Early days yet but the dynamic is different from anything I’ve experienced before, in a very good way.

There has been a real effort to dismantle single sex spaces for men, and women's spaces have been affected by that, by the logic that single sex spaces are inherently discriminatory.

Yes, that's my memory too, as I hinted above.

I was at an all-female lesbian and bi youth group, and it was one of the most healing and important space in my life. I could breathe for the first time, I felt loved for the first time, and safe. Nowadays it is no longer all-female, self-ID rules. That makes me pretty sad for the young women. Apparently not many go now as they tend to all go to the trans group instead. Nothing beats all female space - it's where we learned about feminism and started to unpick our socialisation.

Does anyone remember Shocking Pink? A women's mag in the early 1990s? That introduced me to feminism

Oh, and my recollection is that these spaces were genuinely women-only and that was not contested. They did not include transwomen

In this short speech by Sheila Jeffries she describes how in the 1970's there were a few males who attempted to enter women's spaces but they were refused. The vast majority of women were clear about protecting female space:

I'm in my 60's. When I first started work in the 1970's, I used to catch a ferry to the city. That ferry had a "Ladies' Saloon" which was wonderful. It was such a cheery place, women sitting around chatting and putting on their makeup , relaxing totally with no worries about men staring or being inappropriate. Ahh, those were the days.

I like women only spaces, but I don't think the whole reason they have disappeared is the issue of trans persons. There has been a real effort to dismantle single sex spaces for men, and women's spaces have been affected by that, by the logic that single sex spaces are inherently discriminatory.

Even in terms of funding, publicly funded spaces of that type can only be funded on certain very narrow reasons where sex is seen to be really relevant.

A lot of people who grew up under this perspective find the idea of separating sexes difficult to understand or even offensive.

I'm in my late 50s now, so was in my 20s in the 1980s. I remember many, many women-only spaces - women's centres, women's groups, women's discos, women's bookshops (SIsterwrite was my favourite). I volunteered for Women's Aid and Rape Crisis. Look at the 'Lesbians on Chairs' event video on YouTube - Sheila Jeffreys is the first speaker and she recounts what has been lost in terms of women's and lesbians' spaces and culture. It's tragic. Oh, and my recollection is that these spaces were genuinely women-only and that was not contested. They did not include transwomen - I don't recall ever coming across one in women-only spaces back then. It's possible that there might have been some who passed so completely that no other women realised, but that is very rare, so i doubt it.

I really want to visit the swimming pool in Helsinki that has women only days where you can swim naked. I much prefer to swim naked but can only do that in deserted lakes usually.