AIBU to think it's ridiculous to spend money on facial fillers?

Look at the state of Simon Cowell these days. Waste of money alright.

YANBU. Anything unnatural is horrid.

Whenever cosmetics, or cosmetic surgery (facial fillers being a pretty minor kind) get discussed, it's like entering a minefield. We have to think about why women and not men do this stuff almost exclusively, and what that says about how our society views women and men, and then if there's sexism around, what a good feminist response to it would be. And then there's the slippery question of "choice"--how much of it do we really have, and if we say we're doing something of our own free will, does that make it automatically valid and not open to question?

This has gone less than two full pages, and already there have been some harsh words. Well, the personal is political in this instance. (I'm not taking sides.)

It's nothing to do necessarily with pleasing a man. That's a very reductive view of the social argument

I know it was reductive. My point is the there is a certain streak of feminism which is extremely patronising towards any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing as opposed to not wanting to wear ugly clothes. It doesn't particularly matter whether the definition of what is ugly is pure socialisation - the very fact of choosing something not ugly is criticised.

I also think there is a hugely patronising streak in a certain type of feminism which assumes that any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing to please a man other than pleasing oneself.

Did you actually read the rest of my post? Because I don’t know how the fuck you managed to take that from it.

I also think there is a hugely patronising streak in a certain type of feminism which assumes that any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing to please a man other than pleasing oneself.

It's nothing to do necessarily with pleasing a man. That's a very reductive view of the social argument.
The idea is that standards of beauty have a very significant socialised element. That is true even if you are doing something "for yourself". If you get those duck lips, to please yourself, it's not because somehow you are just a duck-lip loving person. It's because you have been socialised by your environment to see them as attractive. Fashion is similar. One decade everyone likes skinny jeans, another, the same people like bell-bottoms. It's in part because they are told it is fashionable, but it's also because the eye, your sense of proportion and what looks right, is affected by what you see around you. Or with colouring grey hair, if only ancient elderly ladies have it, the brain tends to interpret people with grey hair as being older than they might really be.

Ha! Desert not dessert! Thought dessert island sounds tasty!

I have no interest whatsoever in what any one else thinks of that

I think it's fine to care what people think. We're human and it's normal to care how we're perceived. I doubt any of us would bother getting fillers or our hair dyed if we lived on a dessert island alone.

DpWm

It is beautiful to love yourself
Ruining your face is the opposite of loving yourself.

I recognize people have their own reasons for cosmetic enhancements (or lack thereof) and unless those enhancements are demonstrably harmful I see no reason to question another person's cosmetic choices.

I don't wear base/foundation, concealer, or powder etc., my cystic acne is on display - some people think that ruins my face.

But... opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they usually smell like shit.

I personally agree with you that every woman who has fillers is betraying the sisterhood by helping to raise the bar of normal a bit higher for everyone

I don't use fillers but I find that a ridiculous statement. You can see very well looking round you that women come in all varieties of sizes and shapes and variation of what they do or don't. I also personally think feminists get worked up about "raising the bar for everyone" whereas everyone else just gets on with their lives , either playing along or ignoring it as they choose.

I also think there is a hugely patronising streak in a certain type of feminism which assumes that any effort to be anything other than au natural wearing unisex hemp garments is due to brain washing to please a man other than pleasing oneself.

I loooooooooove my fillers.

I had AWFUL deep "smile lines" that did not look smiley at all but made me look permanently unhappy.

I had fillers that were reversible and non permanent. The intention was to return my face to how it looked before I looked permanently miserable. One of the welcome effects is that it helps to regenerate collagen.

I also had a bit of filler in my lips because they were so thin I couldn't really wear lipstick.

I am very sure that its not obvious because at least three people who see me a lot have raised issues about how can people have fillers and I said I have and they just about fell of their chairs. Agreed that I indeed did not have deep lines but it didn't look like this was because of fillers.

I think there is indeed very significant risks if someone goes to some unqualified to get these things done - but done well by a qualified person I have found it to be great.

You sound quite judgemental and to have an incredibly simplistic way of what the issues are surrounding the pressure on women to look good.

I'm shocked that you're too thick to think this through yourself.

And yes - I'm also pointing you towards AIBU unless you want to raise the level of your analysis....

I think the line will always be a little arbitrary.

Clearly on one side of the line I would put basic self-care. People who don't do it, or who don't take any notice at all of social expectations, are often (not always) people who may struggle with mental health. There is something about wanting to be presentable in a basic way that is attached to being mentally healthy.

On the other side of the line I would put things that are invasive and dangerous. Breast augmentation, liposuction, would be examples. The cost of these is also a factor.

That leaves a lot of middle ground. I think an important point though is that beauty standards are never really individual, what becomes normal affects the perceptions of everyone. If most women dye their hair, grey hair starts to be perceived as a sign you are a lot older than you are, that is how people "read" it. That creates pressure, even if it is just internal pressure, when you start to get grey hair in your late 20s or 30s. Or look at pubic hair removal - something we'd think has only private significance, but when I was a young woman living in a university residence I can tell you that girls felt a lot of pressure about it.

So, I think people have an interest in avoiding beauty trends that are very uncomfortable, invasive, time consuming, or expensive.

I would but fillers and botox in the very questionable end of that - they cost a lot and they are invasive and there can be health effects. Even hair dye or public hair removal are undesirable trends in my opinion, they represent a lot of time and money, and the latter can have undesirable physical effects.

But I don't know that i would say they cross a line. Myself, I wear make-up sometimes, I have dyed my hair in the past. But part of the latter in particular relates to feeling like I looked a lot older than I was. We're all effected by the beauty standards we see around us, and maybe it's worth talking about which ones are really negative for women.

Everyone has their own line. If you do anything beyond washing your hair, teeth and body, using deodorant, and using moisturiser to relieve sore, dry skin, you are going over and above what is strictly “necessary” to be healthy and not offensive to others. And therefore subscribing to stereotyped ideas about femininity. You aren’t a better person if you put conditioner on your hair but think shaving under your arms is a step too far- you’re still spending time and money on things you don’t have to do for the sake of your appearance.

I personally agree with you that every woman who has fillers is betraying the sisterhood by helping to raise the bar of normal a bit higher for everyone. But equally, somebody could (and people do) say the same about removing leg hair, and I’d fight very, very hard to hang on to my razor. So what we all need to do is refuse to get drawn into stupid games where we judge each other over things that don’t matter, and try and shame everyone else into making exactly the same choices as us. That would be a step for for feminism.

I have 2 mum friends that regularly get Botox lips. I personally think it ruins their perfectly nice face

As a feminist I accept it's up to them and don't judge them

The second is rather contradicted by the first.

I don't use fillers. I spend £135 every 5 weeks on getting rid of grey hair. I have no interest whatsoever in what any one else thinks of that.

Women have to choose how much they comply with societal demands on the basis of how much criticism they can bear for not doing so and how bad they will feel about themselves

I doubt society gives 2 hoots about whether I dye my hair, far less dole out criticism. I don't want grey hair. I like being blonde.

"Crossing a line"? Oh, get over yourself!

Of course they’re insecure! They’ve looked at their naturally aging faces and decided they can’t possibly get through life happily looking old. But it’s not surprising, just about everything in our media is meant to make women feel insecure. Perhaps think about the societal pressure and push back on that, rather than blame women for doing it.
We are meant to be good for other people to look at. Hair cuts and dye, make up, skin treatments, surgery: we’re meant to invest time and money and worry about this stuff to keep us in our place as ‘the other’ to men. The worst thing we can do is let ourselves go.
Women have to choose how much they comply with societal demands on the basis of how much criticism they can bear for not doing so and how bad they will feel about themselves.
The awful thing is how those demands are increasing: something only actresses etc did is becoming common for women picking up their children from school? Terrible.

Gosh Op, you’ve only just joined MN and this is the 5th goady thread you’ve started. And then left after a couple of posts .

This is turning into a bit of a habit for your isnt it ?

It is beautiful to love yourself
Ruining your face is the opposite of loving yourself.

I had to google what facial fillers are. I found lots of 'before' and 'after' photos with no discernible difference, so I'm still not really any wiser.

Being interested in looking good... does not automatically mean that you are insecure

Lol facial fillers really don't look good though.

I know what you mean, I have 2 mum friends that regularly get Botox lips. I personally think it ruins their perfectly nice face.
B
As a feminist I accept it's up to them and don't judge them as people, they obviously see something in it.
I am equally allowed to think it looks really bad.

MorrisZapp

LMAO! That's exactly what my friends say - and it is beautiful! It is beautiful to love yourself and that's all that matters in the scope of this conversation. 😎 I wouldn't slap you I would give you a 'high five'.

Why is 'insecure' always the go to insult on here? I have injections and I'm so secure you'd never get tired of slapping me.

Like many posters said it's a personal choice. I don't think it means people are insecure, and while I choose a different path to deal with aging I don't find their paths to be ridiculous.

Adding fillers to the face (or elsewhere), face lifts, and liposuction aren't my path.

But, I also don't judge people that choose to go that route - it really isn't my business and I have more important things to focus on. How people look means nothing to me... who/how they are means everything.

I color my hair (pay a professional) and workout (health & aesthetic)... while less invasive than fillers they are still cosmetic applications. I don't claim to have superior knowledge or insight I just do what feels right for me.

OP maybe focus less on what other people are doing cosmetically and focus more on what you can do to enjoy yourself as you age (if you don't already).

What a massive overgeneralisation. Being interested in looking good , and deciding how you personally want to manage that does not automatically mean that you are insecure. Women are a bit more complex than that

I suppose you could make an feminist argument that it is increasingly expensive to meet the feminine standard and it is an unfair financial as well as social burden.