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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article

163 replies

Igneococcus · 12/05/2019 06:34

Don't think there is a thread yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tangled-case-of-the-brothers-who-became-girls-aged-seven-and-three-dq7spwkdq?shareToken=70b8e4ed3bbe70db44d94b44731e6355

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R0wantrees · 15/05/2019 10:20

cf July 2018 relevent thread, OP Wanderabout wrote:

"Parents who won't 'affirm' 8 yr old gender change being referred to social services

This is really, really disturbing:
mobile.twitter.com/cwknews/status/1022394312556990465

This isn't sensible NHS doctors who are training or advising professionals to do this, based on firm evidence.

This is adult transactivists such as this transwoman:

mobile.twitter.com/cwknews/status/1022397462114443265

Hasn't Tara Hewitt also been attacking the NHS GIDS clinic currently, for trying to have an evidence-based discussion?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317880-Parents-who-wont-affirm-8-yr-old-gender-change-being-referred-to-social-services

Screenshots from Twitter links above

Tara Hewitt & Mermaids/Susie Green have demonstrated a failure to understand or respect Safeguarding frameworks intended to protect children & vulnerable adults.
Tara Hewitt is a founder of TELI (with Jess Bradley & Michelle Hudson) & has had influence in changing NHS & other public service policy:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc

Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article
Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article
LangCleg · 15/05/2019 10:12

That's an excellent article.

R0wantrees · 15/05/2019 10:08

Excellent article by Transgender Trend outlines the vey serious wider implications of this case.

Concludes:
We are left with the question of who selected this particular “expert” to present evidence, and to reflect on how easy it is to sweep aside all normal safeguarding and child protection concerns when the issue is ‘transgender,’ with evidence that would not stand up in any other circumstances. Likewise, behaviour from parents which would arouse suspicion in any other case, is transformed into ‘best practice’ uniquely in the case of ‘transgender children.’

Safeguarding and child protection was an issue highlighted by the Tavistock clinicians who spoke anonymously to David Bell, and was reflected, albeit in a watered-down version, in the recently published Tavistock GIDS Action Plan:

14. I recommend that the trust is unequivocal in holding the position that simply bringing a child to the service for exploration of gender dysphoria does not constitute a safeguarding issue. However, it is reasonable to acknowledge that this can often be a complex population with presentations that can require the need for further deep exploration.

One of the clinicians who resigned from the Tavistock for ethical reasons gave us this comment:

“In my experience, whenever a case got too close to child protection issues, I was just advised to step back and let the local teams take over – i.e. to offer no advice either way. We weren’t supposed to offer an opinion on whether the gender identity might be related to child protection issues, even when it very clearly was.”

This family court decision sets a dangerous precedent. There must be no area of childcare handed over to ideologues, no approach which casts aside established knowledge of child development and psychology, and no treatment of children given a free pass because in this one area we have decided that normal rules do not apply. No child should be placed outside normal safeguarding and duty of care. Put simply, this judgment creates a loophole and puts vulnerable children at risk.

www.transgendertrend.com/parents-socially-transitioned-two-young-children-win-court-battle/

LangCleg · 14/05/2019 22:58

The case of Katie Dolatowski - the person who attacked a female child in a supermarket toilet - could also be considered here:

Defence solicitor Andrew Grieve said his client had been in the social care system from the age of three and had been actively engaging with mental health services.

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/702003/fife-teen-on-sex-offenders-register-after-supermarket-child-attacks/

NottonightJosepheen · 14/05/2019 21:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Popchyk · 14/05/2019 21:28

The person in the Irish case only assaults females and not males, the judge found. The child tried to bond with their father by repeatedly violently attacking their mother. Subsequently the child showed extreme sexualised behaviour towards female staff members in care homes, and made a number of violent attacks on female staff members. This culminated in a violent attack on a female social worker who was hospitalised.

It really does raise the question of how on earth do you keep women and girls safe when you grant someone with such a history automatic access to female-only spaces.

It feels like yet another ticking time bomb.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 14/05/2019 19:17

I know, horrific cycle of violence and trauma.

Transitioning will not break that.

NottonightJosepheen · 14/05/2019 18:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 14/05/2019 18:09

I think some of this is evil. I really do.

Firecarrier · 14/05/2019 17:59

That is just horrific Katvon.

Watch out though we might just offend someone.Confused

Personal offence: The modern version of the most heinous sin possible. In times gone by it would have been something like you know, actually attacking somebody etc, now the most derided are those who dare to stand up and refuse to be brainwashed by this ridiculous ideology. It is like the emperor's new clothes.

If you want to take that path in life, you are free to do so but don't inflict this evil which strikes at the root of a young child's sense of self and identity, particularly when it has already been eroded by abuse from the people who are meant to love you more than anything else in the world. If someone doesn't step in those children are in for a whole world of (even more) pain.

AlwaysComingHome · 14/05/2019 17:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 14/05/2019 17:49

*so

KatvonHostileExtremist · 14/05/2019 17:48

I've just finished reading the court notes from the Irish case (linked by Popchyk above). I don't think I've ever read anything do sad from start to finish.

I was particularly struck by the line from the child saying how they would earn their money in the future. This is some messed up world we are living in. That ambition to be a porn star been inspired by TRAs, for sure.

Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article
Firecarrier · 14/05/2019 17:34

I'm just expecting to be 'banned' for daring to assert that it is evil to do that to those vulnerable children.

Wouldn't surprise me. What an interesting world we now live in eh?

And I actually said evil OR deluded.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 14/05/2019 17:28

Assertion?

a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief

That assertion?

Are we not allowed to assert anymore?

Firecarrier · 14/05/2019 17:21

Red toothbrush, you speak a lot of sense, it seems though that 'The powers that be' often disagree with us!

Incidentally, I have finally had a reply, apparently my post was deleted because it contained assertions or incivility 😂

See below:

Hi there,
Thanks for getting in touch. We deleted your post, reproduced below, because it was featured both assertion and incivility.

"This has really upset me
Pasterski is either evil or completely deluded, goes to show being used as a court expert witness and having a string of letters after your name doesn't stand for much.
As a foster carer I am horrified that these vile manipulative people have been allowed to do this and been patted on the head by a judge, it sounds like children's services tried to fight on behalf of these poor children but were completely ignored.
It says that one little boy came to them as a toddler, he would have already been emotionally damaged then within around a year they were dressing him as a girl.
I am sickened, they should be struck off and in prison.
This is where the slippery slope leads."

I guess it was that little word 'evil' someone objected to, well I stand by it as that is what it is and I will not be silenced so stick that in your pipe Mumsnet.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2019 15:10

I have a fair idea why my post was deleted. It didn't break guidelines but might have been too honest and blunt. Plus it stated the blindly obvious about the publicity surrounding the case.

I can't be arsed to pursue MN over it. It'll get no where, and I know it.

The moderators haven't been 'inside' the dynamics of how it affects a family though. Nor have the politicians.

I'm so used to wives and families being silenced and told to suck it up, I haven't the energy to fight all the time. This particular story has upset me more than most though.

I have withdrawn from my own family because of the toxicity around this ideology. For my own mental well being. I just can not see how it's good for those who are vulnerable and I would be wary about relations with such a family because of my own experiences. Transphobic? Or because I just know what it's like being told that black is white in the context of the foundations of your security and that the fundamentals of your own identity come second to trans ideology.

As I say, it's a grenade in a family set up. Every time I've read about similar or know of similar families they are monumentally fucked up, often with at least one other family member badly affected by the fall out. It's NEVER just about the mental well being of the trans person - be they adult or child. And our failure to recognise this - on a political level, a social services level or a purely social support level (friendships, organisations or just the ability to talk about experiences) is harming people who have direct experience and contact with it.

It destroys the sense of self, it destroys the sense of true identity. Trying to live a constant lie is exhausting and it only spirals and sucks in others.

No one speaks of the reality. No one is allowed to. No one cares. Not about me, not about trans widows, not about ROGD girls and certainly not about kids like this, who no doubt should just be grateful that a loving family is willing to take them in.

Cos that's how it works. The 'Liberal Identity' of proving how tolerant and inclusive you are is more important.

It forgot that liberalism is founded on the principle of the 'on balance' argument for society in which we all have a stake and the truly vulnerable always have someone to stick up for them. Instead they have just become invisible and with no one thinking from multiple points of view in order to make an 'on balance' assessment to minimise harm to as many as possible.

The collateral damage in this case is overwhelmingly groups who have long been those who have been marginalised - the abused wife, the lesbian, the cared for child...

... As I say, those in power do not care. It does not win them votes and in an age of populism that's all that counts. It's every man for himself.

R0wantrees · 14/05/2019 14:31

relevent thread about coercive control/abuse patterns:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

R0wantrees · 14/05/2019 14:29

Its very concerning that on a thread such as this two MN members with particular insight due to personal relationships have had posts deleted.

Firecarrier is a foster carer & RedToothBrush has described the impact of a family member's adult 'transition'

Trauma is very relevent & one has to question the motivation of monitors who seek to silence women whose contributions acknowledge & understand this.

Firecarrier · 14/05/2019 14:19

Thanks, I did report my last message bit not sure how long they take to reply Smile

R0wantrees · 14/05/2019 13:46

Firecarrier If you click report post where yours has been deleted & comment there, it may be easier to make contact with MN.

Firecarrier · 14/05/2019 13:44

I definitely didn't get an email - I checked again, also I emailed HQ on there contact us address (unless I should have used a different one) and still no response.

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2019 13:31

I've had a deletion on this thread. No email to explain why.

Firecarrier · 14/05/2019 13:15

Oh bless them that is horrific. I didn't speculate as such I just said that they would have had some disruption or trauma, even children removed from homes where there hasn't been 'direct abuse' eg. I have cared for a child whose parents weren't nasty but due to special needs and multiple children couldn't meet the basic needs or keep them safe but there is still the trauma of being removed from everything you've ever known before you even add anything else into the mix. As foster carers we are taught that even being removed at birth is a type of trauma/loss to a baby as it comes into the world recognising it's mother's voice and smell.

This whole case is a giant mess 😢

Thanks for the reply

Popchyk · 14/05/2019 12:45

Oh, and Fire.

If your post was deleted for speculation about the trauma endured by the toddler before the toddler was placed with foster parents, your speculation was correct

From the court report upthread (this is in the public domain).

"On 21 December 2012 H and C were placed with CP and TP. H had sustained very serious injuries including skull fractures and associated subdural bleeding arising from shaking and impact mechanisms. He had also sustained spinal fractures, rip fractures and intra retinal haemorrhages. C had sustained a fracture to his upper left humerus caused by forceful squeezing or gripping and rotation of the bone".