Jezebel.com lumps GC feminists in with the alt-right

It's actually pretty sad because we were all rubbing along together just fine with a decent honour system operating and plenty of trust. Now I have no idea how this is going to end, all the trust is gone, and I suspect that the backlash will take out a great chunk of everyone's rights, and the damage done to the credibility of both feminism and the LGB/T movement will set us all back decades.

Trans people have always said that they were women trapped in men's bodies or vice versa. That's nothing new.

I think the new bit is the insistence that they're actually women, in women's bodies, that other people keep referring to as male bodies because they're essentialist colonial racist bigots (or something). It used to be "I hate my penis because it's a male organ and I want to be a woman". Now it's "I love my penis because it's a female organ and I am a woman". Quite the shift!

The stupid thing is that if they hadn't switched it up people probably wouldn't have started questioning the original narrative. I was pretty happy with the "born in the wrong body" line and didn't think much about it until all the bat shittery started. Then I went back to the beginning and thought "wtf does that actually even mean?" Now I can't believe that I didn't question it sooner.

Hi justhadathought. You might have a point there. Maybe there really is zero difference between good and bad things. I hadn't really thought about that.

Ereshkigal, dear, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. It's the far right I was referring to. I was drawing a specific distinction between us and them and I mistakenly thought that would be obvious since we're not bigots. I'll try to be clearer for you in future

Creating 'enemies' as an essential part of a world view is not really that progressive. Reminds me of the 'transgression' side of Queer theory - which absolutely must have 'straight', 'conventiona'l society as its foil.

Trans people have always said that they were women trapped in men's bodies or vice versa. That's nothing new

Yes! That's what Havelock ellis said in 1913 about gay men. And that lesbians were men trapped in women's bodies.

Imagine not being able to see a vulnerable group as people and having that form a core of your ideology. Thanks for putting the differences between us and them into perspective

Exactly! To trans activists women don''t even exist - except as a 'feeling' in a man's head, which in itself is totally against Queer Theory - which is absolutely opposed to essentialism of any sort -and that includes gender essentialism: the idea that a gender identity might exist as some kind of fixed ideal form - outside of material reality.

True, Erythronium, but older transwomen I know and have chatted to about this always seemed very much of the opinion that this was a metaphor - the best they could do in explaining the very complex feelings of not fitting in their sexed body. They didn't seem to demand that it was taken literally, with a huge slew of cod science about clown fish and lady brains and barbie jelly babies.

Trans people have always said that they were women trapped in men's bodies or vice versa. That's nothing new.

No offence spagbowl I didn't see the threads you mention and I agree with you about a lot of the horrendous anti-women things which are happening in the US. Sadly, the fact remains that it's really difficult to get GC ideas published in the left-of-centre press here in the UK (and probably even more difficult across the Atlantic). It's the more right-wing press which is willing to give space to articles on the transgender debate, either because they genuinely oppose the liberal consensus on transgender issues or because they are very right-wing libertarians (such as spiked) who passionately believe in the right to free speech, even if it offends people.

There’s nothing progressive about the trans movement.

It's a regressive ideology that holds it's your gendered personality that dictates your sex. Ghastly 1950s stereotypes GI Joe versus Barbie. Nothing liberating for women there.

This basically sums up the various overlaps of

The bottom line of both the trans and the right position is the same - boys cannot wear dresses.

There’s nothing progressive about the trans movement. Unless it’s that they take old-fashioned sex-role stereotypes to a whole new level.

I watched the Holy See side event at the UN women's rights conference in March because they were the only ones to specifically address GC issues. It was very obvious that while we'd drawn the same conclusions we'd got there from different places. The message was very much that trans issues were bad because it took femininity away from women and devalued our roles as wives and mothers. There was also a bit about desistence rates in trans youth which claimed that there was a similar rate of desistence in gay and lesbian youth "if not encouraged". It made me cross because, whilst we need all the help we can get, it definitely weakens our position to be lumped in with such beliefs.

In a lot of ways the trans position has more in common with the right than the GC position. Trans ideology says "Only women wear dresses therefore I'm a woman". The right says "you can't wear dresses because only women can wear dresses". GC say "you can wear a dress but it doesn't make you a woman". The bottom line of both the trans and the right position is the same - boys cannot wear dresses.

Yeah I reckon the best way to avoid that sort of guilt by association would be to really come out fighting when it comes to the fascist and misogynists on the right y'know? We're nothing like them. They are the enemies of women's rights and we should make ourselves incapable of any guilt by association by consistently telling them to do one.

I didn’t phrase that correctly. It’s not the fact that those individual feminists went to America, it was that on the threads I read on here about it afterwards, everyone was condoning it and didn’t see an issue.
I think it put in perspective for me that there are a lot of issues woman face today, trumps America probably being one of the greatest (anti-abortion, anti-lesbian, anti-ethnic minority woman, anti- woman in work etc) the people they aligned with, are people promoting and contributing to this hate.
Trans issues may seem like the most important issue to some, but I believe that aligning with people who treat woman with such distain simply because you share mutual concerns on one issue (although I don’t believe for the same reasons) is not the way forward.

The condoning of aligning with these people on MN did genuinely make me doubt the whole ‘movement’

That’s my honest opinion, it may help see from another perspective but I do not wish to argue or offend.

I think the tendency to leap towards "guilt by association" is one of the greatest failings of contemporary politics across the board, coupled with a tendency towards hyperbole.

Think the welfare state is being dismantled by the current conservative government and this is a bad thing? Then clearly "you're in bed with Corbyn and McDonnell and want to turn the UK into Venezuela..."

Have reservations about the amount of power wielded by the European Commission and its lack of accountability? "You're a UKIP swivel eyed racist loon and thick..."

Think that all things considered, you can't vote for Labour. "You're somewhere to the right of Rees-Mogg, and have stupidly bought the right wing press's made up lies about antisemitism..."

Surely we can do better than this? And that includes deciding that all the issues raised by gender critical feminists are suspect because you don't like Posie (for the record, I don't much like a lot of what she's said - for instance, I dislike many of the things she has written about Muslims, and think she is guilty of over-generalising and tarring everyone with the same brush - but I do think her tenacity, and some of her publicity stunts like the projection of "adult human female" onto the sides of buildings are absolutely inspired and inspiring).

Not that you’ll care but I do think GC feminists lost a LOT of credibility once Posie etc went to America.

Would you say that about the actions of a couple of members of say a political party or other interest group? We're individuals, not clones, and like any other supporters of a cause we sometimes disagree. To tar a whole group because of the words or actions of a tiny minority seems very odd and intolerant.

Not that you’ll care but I do think GC feminists lost a LOT of credibility once Posie etc went to America.
Certainly made me, who was inquisitive about the subject and very much on the fence, leap back off.

I agree, Lass, some of the best journalism on the horrors of German superbrothels has come from the Daily Telegraph, and it's clearly been driven by concern for the women being exploited (not a drive to punish and control).

It is true, I think, that some elements of the religious right in America have a problem with prostitution not because it is inherently demeaning to women, but because they think all sex outside marriage is wrong - and for them, it's the "temptation" element that's wrong, not the inherent abuse and vitiation of consent. But they are, I would argue, outliers within conservative thought (certainly compared to conservatism in this country).

That's not the same Esther who once wrote an article describing MN as "a hotbed of transphobia", is it? IIRC she was American too. We had quite a lot of fun with that.

There are times when radical feminist have some common ground with conservatives regarding porn and prostitution. However the reasons are never the same. Feminists want freedom from exploitation and objectification. Conservatives just want to punish women because they can't see us as people

That comment is as narrow - minded and blinded by your own ideology as what you are criticising.

I don't know who drew this, but it completely skewers the Jezebel rubbish.

Jezebel has always been about doing feminism for men. This is more of the same.