Jezebel.com lumps GC feminists in with the alt-right

Datun, you have the patience of a saint

I think most sane people would be concerned about Self ID but whether legally classed transwoman with GD pose any more dramatic risk than say a trans man to the ordinary woman? Not convinced.

No-one needs to convince you. The Swedish study which concluded that transwomen conform to male pattern criminality, only used men who had been diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria does not mean that a man suddenly takes on the statistical risks of a woman. Why on earth would it?

I also don’t think TRAs represent trans people any more than the heritage foundation represent woman.

It's irrelevant who they represent. They are pushing for a law that will allow every single predator in the country to access women and girls whilst they are disrobing or vulnerable.

Furthermore, of the transwomen in prison, nearly half are there for sex offences. Way above average.

Transmen are generally vulnerable women. And trying to leverage an ideology that everyone profoundly disagrees with profoundly, in order to manufacture a gotcha?

If transmen are going to upset women, which they might well, they can use a third space. Or the gents if they pass.

oh boy. yes let's have this conversation again.

actually on second thoughts, I'm out.

Isn’t the point that keeps getting reiterated not that they are necessarily dangerous but that woman may not like seeing someone who appears Male in their bathrooms etc due to previous trauma or just not wanting it. Would a transmen not pose more as much risk to the mental wellbeing of those people?

whether legally classed transwoman with GD pose any more dramatic risk than say a trans man to the ordinary woman? Not convinced

transmen are female. The risk they pose to other women is vanishingly small. Please don't try to imply otherwise, it's not fair.

We can do the fallacy bingo if you like. On the other hand, we could go back to discussing the topic of the thread.

It’s funny Lang that you’ve ignored my comments about the thread subject but instead chosen to comment on the other bits (which I only entered into conversation about under what others have said) and then wrote that, ironic or what.

I think most sane people would be concerned about Self ID but whether legally classed transwoman with GD pose any more dramatic risk than say a trans man to the ordinary woman? Not convinced.

I also don’t think TRAs represent trans people any more than the heritage foundation represent woman.

A young girl I used to work in came into work terrified and shaking one day as she’d heard the people at the mosque chanting ‘allahu Akhbar’ she thought this meant they were going to do a terrorist attack as she’d heard on the news that’s what some terrorists had said before they committed an attack. I had to explain to her they were just praising their god in Arabic and it was completely innocent.

Isn’t it funny how we associate people, organisations, words with this idea of who and what they are, based on who and what we read, hear and speak too. We forget that we only ever hear the worst because the normal ordinary person going to the shops or feeding their kids doesn’t make for a good twitter hash tag.

When leafleting last autumn I found that as soon as you explained the principle of Self ID men who were husbands and fathers became instantly gender critical. They didn't want the women and girls they loved to have to share changing rooms, wards, etc with males however those males might identify. The man in the street (literally) doesn't think transwomen are women.
When I first came across this I thought it was those that had operations, but still felt they were not what they tried to turn into but more of a third gender. It did cause some interest into what all the fuss was about, so I started to read about and listen to what people were saying. I could understand were the keep single sex spaces arguments came from and along with the other points such as sport it made a lot of sense. The TRA lobby on the other hand frightened me with the if you don't have sex with a trans woman you are abusing her, and they are real women or men and can go where they like regardless of the fear or discomfort they cause because they are mega oppressed. To be honest I don't want a woman in the loos when I am at a urinal and I don't want some bloke in a dress in the womens when my daughter is in there. I went from a live and let live to a well I can not get how unreasonable one set are being and honestly frightening in their behaviour.

Justhadathought that summarises the situation very well.

Given that no research is permitted if it threatens whatever talking points are being promoted atm, it's clear that TRAs will attempt to block any scientific examination of the issues. Probably because they suspect it wouldn't suit their agenda.

Many FWR regulars have observed how hostile the trans lobby is towards research. Other patient groups are mad keen to have people study their condition. They hope diagnosis and treatment will be improved. But TRAs don't want research. My conclusion, arrived at over some years, is that they fear research findings wouldn't confirm their assertions about themselves.

I think MH issues have a lot to do with transgender identities. It's definitely true that a lot of the more prominent TRAs are quite disturbed people. A high proportion of them have either committed actual criminal or public order offences or been grossly antisocial. From exposing themselves to assaulting grandmothers to espousing extreme violent pornography - it's very striking. And TRAs may insist that they ARE women but it's screamingly obvious that they weren't socialized as women, nor do they have any interest in adopting such socialization. They come across as totally male, and a particularly misogynist subset of men at that.

The idea that if only we dug a little deeper we might understand is ludicrous when you look at actually what is being done

No doubt considerable funds are being ploughed in to research that will show some kind of biological compulsion, because otherwise all your left with is 'a feeling'; and feelings change as do our identities over time.

I'm wondering when/if this magical biological essence is found, what the researchers might say about homosexuality and lesbianism? Is it the same gene that 'causes' both transgenderism and homosexuality? If so, is it just a matter of interpretation of your feelings, whether you choose trans or gay? What gene is it that makes young lesbians decide they are really trans within a year or two of coming out as gay?
What gene is it that makes a 55 year old heterosexual, married man and father, decide at mid-life he is really a woman after all. Is it the same gene that causes lesbians to transition to men, or is it another variant?

Is there some kind of genetic, biological switch, which turns itself on - after a life time of boxing, military pursuits or other macho activities, rendering one's previously male brain female. Does the brain go from hard to soft?

Maybe so, but I still think there’s more to be discovered.

Mate, we can play the fallacies game all day. This one's called an argument from ignorance.

We can do the fallacy bingo if you like. On the other hand, we could go back to discussing the topic of the thread.

Well said Justhadathought.

The idea that if only we dug a little deeper we might understand is ludicrous when you look at actually what is being done.

These people are more women hating than anyone else.

I think for society as a whole though, more research into Transgenderism is needed

There has already been lots research - but unfortunately anything which does not support the narrative is suppressed; not reported etc. Note the researcher at Bath Spa university who had years of experience with trans issues, and wanted to do a research topic on de-transitioning. That caused an uproar, didn't it.

And the professor who has just had his twitter account blocked for tweeting about his findings......or the doctors and specialists at the Tavistock who just recently said that they saw a lot of transitioning as a form of gay conversion therapy etc

The more public criticism or questioning the less fashionable the trend will be. It is in no doubt a trend - with big money and vested interests behind it.I think you should look back over the multiple threads on here - because all of this has been said before.

Regarding what you see as a hostility....It really is not just a few violent and abusive activists....The meetings cancelled by venues with just minutes notice because of phone calls from trans people and their allies, and then having attendees, including experts and professional people, having to walk across towns and cities in the rain, in order to reach the hastily established new venue......The constant bad faith trolling on here.....the left-liberal media stitch-up.....the scary proposition of our children & grandchildren being exposed to this damaging nonsense..the people being taken to court...or questioned by police......the overt bullying and intimidation....and the pure insult of men telling women what it means to be a woman.......brave, intelligent women being threatened with their loss of livelihood.....the sheer totalitarian suppression that is typical of this movement.

Also increasing numbers of men from all those backgrounds.

When leafleting last autumn I found that as soon as you explained the principle of Self ID men who were husbands and fathers became instantly gender critical. They didn't want the women and girls they loved to have to share changing rooms, wards, etc with males however those males might identify. The man in the street (literally) doesn't think transwomen are women.

Admittedly, I’m not really up to date on what the thoughts are from the trans community on that (or anything!) the very few trans people I do know have always been open about having gender dysphoria though and it’s what they say when discussing being trans.

I think for society as a whole though, more research into Transgenderism is needed. It must be incredibly hard for some people going through it, especially young people. But, I also think more research would be helpful in differentiating those with AGP. In those cases, I don’t really care if a man wants to wear a dress and wig for whatever reason, not my life but they are not the same as transgender and should not be classed as such and there should be no discussion on including them in the same category.

I do think some of the hostility on here is clearly caused by mainly having dealings with/hearing about the AGP and mouthy ‘suck my lady dick’ types rather than the large proportion of trans people who are normal people who just want to live their lives.

Maybe so, but I still think there’s more to be discovered. Biologically men and woman will always be XX / XY but I wouldn’t be surprised if research led to discovering real differences in brains/genetics of trans people.

I thought trans people didn't want being trans to be a diagnosable condition and that the concept of gender dysphoria was now transphobic?

There's a vast baggy disparate mass of women with all kinds of different backgrounds - yes, black and white, young and old, atheists and Catholics, Muslims and Jews, Brexiters and anti-Brexiters - all of whom will defend the right to be gender critical.

Also increasing numbers of men from all those backgrounds.

Maybe so, but I still think there’s more to be discovered. Biologically men and woman will always be XX / XY but I wouldn’t be surprised if research led to discovering real differences in brains/genetics of trans people.
A few hundred years ago, if you had a headache they drilled holes in your head to release bad demons... we are discovering all the time.
The Iran point is also something I find interesting. It seems in Iran, if you are gay they say you are trans, whereas a lot of UK people think trans people are just confused gays!
The issue really is only entirely relevant where biological advantages come into play such as sport and woman-only spaces, which is obviously a big issue that needs air-time and support.
I do still 100% stand by my original point though, if wanting to raise awareness of attacks on woman’s rights, best not to join up with anti-woman organisations to do so.
In the scheme of things, more woman are likely to need an abortion, contraception, financial support, leave an abusive marriage or wear whatever she wants than they are to be personally affected by transwoman being known as woman - which is where I think it through into doubt, is it really about preventing further oppression or spreading it? Everyone has different reasons and opinions I guess.

God of the Gaps explains it perfectly!

This is exactly it. It really is the God of the Gaps argument which is funny when it comes from atheists.

I’m fairly certain the writer is a transwoman. The boring, long-winded prose style is a dead giveaway.

Exactly, Datun.

I’m talking about hidden conditions. There is so much about the human body and mind that we haven’t even begun exploring, I don’t know how it can be shut down with a blasé attitude.

Even if a female essence was discovered in transitioning men, it still doesn't change their sex. Because sex not a description of an essence. It's a description of reproductive potential.

It's unbelievably tiresome to have to constantly counter but what if it was like this, or that, or we add this to the mix, what if I do my homework as soon as I get home tomorrow, can I stay up late tonight, what if I walk the dog, what if I help wash up???

Strewth.

Wow! You would think reports like those would be impossible to suppress! Scary!

Great post, DancelikeEmmaGoldman