Jezebel.com lumps GC feminists in with the alt-right

Andrea Dworkin is worth listening to on this stuff.

Part of having a feminist resistance to male power includes expanding the base of that resistance to other women, to women you have less in common with, to women you have nothing in common with. It means active, proselytizing dialogue with women of many different political viewpoints because their lives are worth what your life is worth.

That's why.

We have to go past the conventional political barriers, the lines that the men have drawn for us. "Our girls are over there; we'll call them Democrats, we'll call them socialists, we'll call them whatever we want to call them. Those girls are over there; that's their girls. The girls on our side aren't allowed to talk to the girls on their side." Well, if the girls on either side talked to the girls on the other side, they just might find out that they're being screwed the same way by the same kinds of men.

[A]re we, out of the compassion in which we have been positively forced to drown as women, are we yet again going to defend the male supremacist, yes obscenity of male tranvestitism? How many of us will try to explain away—or permit into our organizations, even—men who deliberately reemphasize gender roles, and who parody female oppression and suffering as “Camp”?

I will not call a male “she;” thirty-two years of suffering in this androcentric society, and of surviving, have earned me the title “woman;” one walk down the street by a male tranvestite, five minutes of his being hassled (which he may enjoy), and then he dares, he dares to think he understands our pain? No, in our mothers’ names and in our own, we must not call him sister. We know what’s at work when whites wear blackface; the same thing is at work when men wear drag.

Robin Morgan, 1972

That's how long women have been dealing with this BS.

I quite enjoyed that article. I know it's supposed to be an 'anti T**F' piece but, for once, the feminist arguments were not misrepresented. There were some really good long quotes and some interesting bits of feminist history. The author didn't really have any counter arguments except 'this is bigoted' and 'they're talking to the right and saying some of the same things'.

“Come on. How wrong does something have to be for a Christian, pro-family organization and a radical feminist organization to oppose it together?” FPA’s Autumn Leva said in one of the videos.

I agree with Autumn Leva on this. I agree with Natasha Chart too:

Hard to credit this even needs to be said.

I honestly thought my days of explaining really basic things was over once my kids passed the under 10 stage. I can't quite understand why I'm still having to explain the difference between a fact and a genuinely held but wrong belief.

Proving that a reason for someone believing something materially unprovable or incorrect is based in a natural phenomena does not prove anything about the belief itself.

Indeed. Hard to credit this even needs to be said.

Well yes, there could well be some biological reason people get sex dysphoria. But, this has no bearing at all on if those people are actually the opposite sex. Which clearly they aren't. It is a bit of a strange argument really as regardless for the reasons, it doesn't change anything anyway, yes, there might be some genetic reason they have dysphoria..but, it would make no difference anyway. A mental illness is a mental illness. And some are more likely to get whatever illnesses for many reasons, but that doesn't mean that, say,. someone convinced they are Napolean, actually is Napolean.

FFS, there may well have been a genetic disposition that led to the trauma induced episode wherein I believed I could fly in my early twenties. The reality of the genetic disposition in no way affects the fact that had I been allowed to jump out of the attic flat in which I lived, I would not have soared free above the surrounding houses, I would have plummeted to the ground at speed.

Proving that a reason for someone believing something materially unprovable or incorrect is based in a natural phenomena does not prove anything about the belief itself.

Basically, yeah a genetic reason for people having sex dysphoria might well be discovered (and wouldn't surprise me). But this 'magical gender essence that overrules sex? Nah. There cannot be a genetic reason for 'modern trans'..or 'transgenderism' really. Transsexualism, yeah possibly. But, saying you see a difference between transsexuals and the 'anyone is a woman!' types, is massively bigoted and makes you a terf apparently.

Biologically men and woman will always be XX / XY but I wouldn’t be surprised if research led to discovering real differences in brains/genetics of trans people.

I have always been very open to the idea of some biological reasoning behind it. However, this only works if you are talking about transsexuals, people with dysphoria. Once you get into the new 'progressive' bullshit of how anyone who simply says they are trans is trans and that, it falls apart. And tbh, its since this new 'progressive' thinking came about, that problems started. Once you have any man able to self declare his way into womens changing rooms, and any woman who objects instantly declared a bigot...

YY exactly.

And people on the left who would be outraged by any other policy that had the effect of excluding BAME women from public life will happily give their rights away if it benefits men who identify as women who are, it seems, the most pitifully oppressed and vulnerable of all minorities.

Yes, I've noticed this too. It's dick pandering, is what it all comes down to. People with penises get prioritised.

Third space would obviously be preferable, or toilets with enclosed cubicals and sinks. However, the way a woman may feel with a (passable) transman in the toilet, the fear she may feel from that, is not entirely dissimilar to how a TW May feel being alone in the gents

I think a 'passable' trans-man would probably feel more threatened using the men's loos, than a woman would feel by a 'passable' trans man using the ladies. I believe there are instinctive, and intuitive, reasons for this.

Overall, though - you're right - third spaces are the solution.

but anyone with half a brain cell will know that suggesting AGP and transgender are the same thing is nearly as stupid as suggesting pedophiles should get a free pass under LGBT

...and yet that is precisely the case. Can't be too many brain cells doing the rounds, can there?

I think a lot of Male violence in general has been linked to increased testosterone levels (I'm sure female prisoners also have higher testosterone on average) so it’s not a huge and unreasonable leap to suggest there may well be a reduction in crime rates of TW when compared with the average man

...and yet this does not seem to be the case at all. Note hammer attack in Liverpool a few days ago.... ( & by someone who advises the police on 'gender and diversity issues');note highly aggressive, abusive behaviour by multiple trans women ( trans woman kicking off and smashing up shop when being politely 'misgendered', for example).......The truth is there doesn't seem to be that much difference at all in levels of aggression and violence.

Since the "it's the testosterone!" argument has predictably turned up I will recommend Cordelia Fine's book Testosterone Rex for an excellent overview of what testosterone does (and doesn't) do and the sexist assumptions that follow.

Deadnaming is both a ludicrous and alarming concept. Ludicrous because it's obviously utter piffle, particularly to women when so many women either changed their names on marriage or know women who did. Alarming because some TW use the prohibition against deadnaming to conceal criminal records and sometimes other things that are of importance to third parties.

If the concept of deadnaming was legit, TRAs would hasten to reassure people that if a TW has a criminal record under a previous name then they shouldn't be allowed to conceal it. But they don't. Which removes any illusion of good faith. This lack of integrity gets very monotonous. And dispiriting.

Men aren't women. Women are humans in their own right. They are concept and an entity all of their own. They have shared characteristics which place them in a certain category.

We frequently get visitors on this board who make it clear they think there should be special allowances for whichever group of TW they're advocating for; allowances that mean that if they do their homework and play nicely they will "qualify" as women.

But being a woman isn't a club or something you can pay dues to access. It's a material reality. The legal fiction of a GRC does nothing to change someone's sex.

Datun, you have the patience of a saint

She really does.

it’s not a huge and unreasonable leap to suggest there may well be a reduction in crime rates of TW when compared with the average man.

You can suggest what you like. But without any evidence, or even indication, it's meaningless.

The Swedish study has not been refuted. People are misreading it.

but anyone with half a brain cell will know that suggesting AGP and transgender are the same thing is nearly as stupid as...

I'm afraid you are going to have to take that up with Stonewall, in that case. The definition of being trans is anyone who says they are. There is no test. That is nothing to do with women.

The number of people who have a gender recognition certificate is about 5000, a mix of men and women. Therefore the number of men who, you seem to suggest, are genuine, is minuscule.

By all means come up with a plan to separate those from anyone else. But as it's all subjective and down to saying some words out loud, I doubt you will.

And the men who have a gender recognition certificate and gender dysphoria, are still men. With no evidence to suggest they act any different to any other man.

Indeed gender dysphoria has actually been blamed for the crimes of quite a few men who transition.

I don't know why you are still demanding that there is cohort who should be given a pass.

Men aren't women. Women are humans in their own right. They are concept and an entity all of their own. They have shared characteristics which place them in a certain category.

It's the height of entitlement to suggest they are artificially weakened, or non-functioning men.

There is no pass.

There are plenty of things on which I might disagree with religiously conservative Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women, but we all have a lot to lose if our single sex spaces disappear.

And people on the left who would be outraged by any other policy that had the effect of excluding BAME women from public life will happily give their rights away if it benefits men who identify as women who are, it seems, the most pitifully oppressed and vulnerable of all minorities.

So women across the religious and political landscape have common cause. As do, for instance, the parents of girls who are expected to accept being beaten at a sports at which they excel by boys who call themselves girls.

And there's plenty more I could add. Transgender ideology damages the interests of women and girls in a multitude of ways. Feminists, particularly lesbians, spotted the issues a lot sooner than other groups, but as time goes on and the effects of the ideology reach a wider audience the pushback is only going to grow.

One thing I've discovered is that most people assume, as Oldrockman did, that transwomen have all had what used to be called sex change surgery. Once they know the truth there's a sharp intake of breath and a rapid reassessment of the situation.

The more truth out there the better.

yawn
Look! There 's an airborne flitch!

I don’t think it’s patience to be able to be able to defend your point, more intelligence and belief in what you’re saying.
People who sneer and act like ‘oh I’m too good to discuss this’ appear actually, rather lost.

The Swedish study has been refuted hasn’t it? I’m sure I read on here that the author said his/her data was being completely misused by GC people? I may be thinking of a different study though. I think a lot of Male violence in general has been linked to increased testosterone levels (im sure female prisoners also have higher testosterone on average) so it’s not a huge and unreasonable leap to suggest there may well be a reduction in crime rates of TW when compared with the average man.
The percentage of transwoman in prison for sexual offences is obviously worrying, although again I believe this data is not quite as black and white as it was once said to be. There is clearly AGP present in some ‘TW’ and this certainly needs to be addressed, but anyone with half a brain cell will know that suggesting AGP and transgender are the same thing is nearly as stupid as suggesting pedophiles should get a free pass under LGBT. It is something that only those with something to gain, believe and fight for.
Third space would obviously be preferable, or toilets with enclosed cubicals and sinks. However, the way a woman may feel with a (passable) transman in the toilet, the fear she may feel from that, is not entirely dissimilar to how a TW May feel being alone in the gents.
At the end of the day, when a woman is sexually assaulted in a random attack, her attacker does not know her chromosomes or genetic makeup, he makes an assumption based on appearance.

Haha bernard I even had the time to say 'profoundly disagree with, profoundly' !!