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Original poster

Encouraging Women in STEM.

114 replies

DpWm · 11/05/2019 08:10

The institute for Apprenticeships seems to have developed a novel way to encourage female applications for apprenticeships in STEM careers, which sits around a woeful 9%, and apparently works, seeing a rise of about 40% female applicants when tested.

feweek.co.uk/2019/05/10/ifa-to-trial-gender-neutral-language-in-bid-to-boost-female-stem-applicants/

It's really interesting and quite depressing, if this really works, to see how gendered language works to hold women back. It reveals how extremely sexist the world is, how women and men are shaped to view themselves.

From link
The advert that increased female applications by 40 per cent referred to by Morfee, and seen by FE Week, lists a number of “feminine and neutral” words that should be used in job adverts, which include: understand, kind, honest, dependable, co-operative and support

It also lists “masculine” words that should be avoided, such as: active, decisive, leader, ambition, challenge, objective, competitiveness, independence, opinion, confident and intellectual.

So women are put off from applying for jobs that ask for applicants who are "ambitious" and "intellectual" and prefer jobs that ask for those who are "kind" and "supportive".

I understand why they have taken this approach, and great if it helps women into stem, but avoiding the words of traits that actually help people get ahead in their career is surely just a bit of a blunt tool, and pretty sexist.
So much work needs to be done for women to see they can have all the traits usually associated with masculinity, why should "ambition" be reserved for men?

OP posts:
Genderfreelass · 11/05/2019 09:05

I would say medicine is science so yes STEM. Of the sciences I think biology has generally aleays attracted more girls than chem/physics.

Original poster
DpWm · 11/05/2019 09:02

Deepwatersolo
NotanotherJaffaCake
Yeah so true. The testing shows an increase of 40% in female applicants but no info on how many females actually gain the apprenticeships over male applicants.

The idea of sex/ethnicity blind applications is a great one. But you can't be sex/race/ethnicity blind when it gets to interview stage.

And so true, that by the age women are applying for apprenticeships socialisation has already set in deeply, higher education is woefully lacking in female STEM graduates (apart from medicine. Is that stem?).

OP posts:
Namenic · 11/05/2019 08:47

It’s changing for doctors. More new doctors are female

Namenic · 11/05/2019 08:46

Ambition to me implies individualism sometimes at the expense of colleagues. It would benefit men and women to have workplaces where people at the top listen to others and make useful improvements rather than driving through pointless policies

floraloctopus · 11/05/2019 08:46

I think it's lost much earlier, if you talk to girls age 8 or so and they will say they want to be a nurse, if you suggest a doctor they will look surprised as if a woman can't be a doctor. If you ask them to draw an engineer you'll maybe get one female engineer. It's really depressing.

Fucktifikeepmyrealname · 11/05/2019 08:45

Yes, removing gendered language works. Read iris bohnet's book, "what works" - it's about using behavioural design to improve diversity. Loads of examples from real life as well as experimental evidence.

Also, if you are recruiting or know someone recruiting for a job, try the Applied platform (beapplied.com). It enables recruitment blind of gender, ethnicity etc. Sounds unnecessary until you see the stats on how identical CVs with differently gendered names on have very very different outcomes. I'm considering changing my name to John.

deepwatersolo · 11/05/2019 08:43

NotanotherJaffaCake you nailed it. The problem is not the language. Just like calling a bepenised person a woman does not make him one, tinkering with the language will change nothing about a Boss who will consider a new Baby a reason for a pay raise, and cutting slack for the new Dad, and a reason for demotion and questioning commitment for the new Mum.

BobbinThreadbare123 · 11/05/2019 08:42

By apprenticeship time, it's already too late to be worry about semantics! Girls' interest is lost by the age of 8....its also very connected to the encouragement of their mum ( teachers, dad etc have a lot less impact) and what she does for a living. Have a look at the Institute of Physics Gender Balance project. The findings there are quite sad. It's also not an issue in other countries to the same extent; nobody knows why!

Genderfreelass · 11/05/2019 08:37

I've always worked in STEM professions and am comfortable using the words on either list. Intellectual to a certain extent is needed in most/all stem jobs and to be adaptable/flexible as things change constantly - I like the constant change as I find it challenging.

Yes there are plenty of dick heads in these fields but aren't they everywhere?

I think the problem starts with very young children sadly and by secondary school far less girls STEM subjects 😕

I had a conversation recently that I've had quite a few times before. I'm British and my dh Polish - a bit of an anomaly as there are quite a few British men with Polish wives but rare our way round. I know from my female friends many wanted men with decent jobs. Maybe we need to teach girls that it's best to get a decent job yourself and then marry for love and kindness?

MIdgebabe · 11/05/2019 08:27

I would call that a strong work ethic. I read ambition as pole climbing. I must stop assuming things!

Original poster
DpWm · 11/05/2019 08:25

Is it really helpful to have a team full of highly ambitious people?

Well, surely yes, because these people will want to do the best job they can and push themselves to become more competent.

Haa ok I just wrote that and I can already think of many "ambitious" people who are incompetent and lazy but worked their way to the top god knows how. By being dodgy and unscrupulous.
So you may have a point.

My idea of ambition is the drive to do your best. Which is a good thing for everyone.

OP posts:
MIdgebabe · 11/05/2019 08:19

Changing language has been done in my tech company to good effect.

But on the point of should women be taught they can have masculine traits...well yes on one hand we should not be teaching that some traits are unsuitable in women but

WHY are masculine characteriscs considered good? Is it really helpful to have a team full of highly ambitious people? Our company’s wants to benefit from diversity. If you get more women by changing women’s behaviour and selecting women who act like men then you have reduced diversity

NotAnotherJaffaCake · 11/05/2019 08:17

There was a push a few years ago in academia to change the language of job applications for senior roles, because the language was indeed putting off applicants. I don’t know whether it had an impact.

As always, I don’t believe the problem is with women in STEM. It’s the misogynist arsehole they encounter when they get there.

OP posts: